Has anyone ever actually measured and compared kilt swing?

[Jock Scot]

This thing about the swish of a kilt is real.

When guys come into my shop with a lady I will usually ask them "Why do we wear the kilt?". They will often answer with "Heritage" or "comfort" or some other answer about them.

I then tell them that we do not wear the kilt for us.

I then turn my back to the lady and tell the guy to watch her. Then watch his reaction to her reaction to swish.

That is why we wear the kilt. Women love to watch us walk away. It is called "The power of the kilt".

Swish is a factor of a few things. The heavier the fabric - usually the better the swish. The longer the pleats are - usually the better the swish. Narrow pleats will usually swish better than wide pleats. (this is why an 8 yard kilt has better swish than a 5 yard kilt).
A well tailored and well fitting kilt will swish better than the average off-the-rack kilt. Where the bottom of the Fell area fits the wearer has a very large effect on swish. (wearing a kilt designed to be worn at the anatomical waist, lower than where it was designed to fit, drops the bottom of the Fell below the crest of the butt, and totally destroys the swish.)
And the fabric the kilt is made from has a lot to do with swish. Twill woven Wool will swish far better than the average Polyester/Cotton fabrics that most utility kilts are made from.

So yes, swish is real, and a well fitting, heavy weight wool kilt, swishes better than anything else.

Good gracious me! Until I joined this website and after wearing the kilt for rather a long time I had no idea that the "swish" even existed and I am actually still not convinced that this swish thing actually exists!In truth it bothers me not, either way. Bragging was never a consideration either, as I like many others in the Highlands either wore hand-me-downs that might have fitted perfectly at some stage, but usually didn't, or we wore a bespoke kilt made specifically for the individual when they had supposedly finished growing------there was no other option and likewise wool was the only cloth option. The spin off was a kilt that often lasted at least a couple of generations. The only input from the customer was the choice of their tartan and standing there for the tailor to take measurements after that it was all down to him. Again, how the kilt was constructed was never discussed and as far as I am aware no one was interested and in many cases still aren't, everything was done on trust. It was very much a "you build it and I will fly it" situation and there is, even today, much to commend that attitude.

So, what is the point I am making? I really think that some of you chaps are tending to overthink all this, granted different cloths are available now and off the peg options are available from good and not so good tailors from all over the world now and indeed a website such as this serves a very useful purpose in helping with the all important "trust" aspect too and yes the build quality will and does vary and I am sorry to say, price is not necessarily a guarantee of quality either.

So buy the best kilt that you can afford after doing your research on who made the kilt and then just put the damn thing on and get on with life!

[Father Bill]

Agreed, Jock, it does get silly.

Okay, I do not live on the equator, but SW Ontario Canada, where I live can get up to 28 - 30 Celsius or higher quite often (Americans can get out their calculators) and with the lakes close and on two sides of us nearby and upwind, the humidity is often in the 60 - 70% range which combined with the temperature, is darned sweaty warm. (For those who think of Canada as the frozen wasteland, I'd point out that an hour or so drive from me is Canada's southernmost point which is actually a shade farther south than the northern border of California. Check your maps.)

I only wear my two 16 oz wool kilts. One is a tank, the other an old style box pleat which has less wool, but is still 16 oz. I don't ever really notice a difference between the two in warmth because the ONLY part of either kilt that gets warm, is around the belly where there are a couple of layers plus lining etc. all strapped in tight.

I wouldn't be fool enough to wear black barathea under those summer conditions, not even a waistcoat which in my own opinion, is somewhat tasteless if not worn under a jacket anyway. My waistcoats are optional winter wear, under jackets. I wear short-sleeved cotton shirts in such conditions (another reason not to wear a vest with no jacket because it's quite improper to have a waistcoat with short sleeves), and yes, I wear normal, long woolen hose, but I choose those I own that have a loose knit and the breeze blows right through them. The picture is below. I've used it here several times. That's 16 oz 8 yard. If I wanted to be cooler, I'd leave the dirk belt at home since I don't even own a dirk and don't want one.

Even wearing a clerical collar which can be a warm item, I just wear short sleeves with a size 17 1/2 or even an 18, whereas I can easily wear a 17 dress shirt with a tie. Experience as a headmaster, and common sense long since taught me to wear my ties with shirts that have a collar a half size larger than a close fit would be. Most men I know wear their shirt collars too tight and then a lot of them like to complain about how uncomfortable a tie is. Nonsense. They're wearing the wrong shirt size. Most haberdashers sell shirts that fit too tightly for comfort. It's uncomfortable, and it's hot.

The result with some planning aforethought, is comfort with a bit of a sweaty belly which is likely in part my own fault since I'm overweight.

Now: for swish. If that's really important to you, it's been made clear here that it's a factor of material/ weight of cloth/ yardage & good posture. With good twill, the more of that, the more swing, just like curtains. Those of you who have been in the theatre when they close the curtain know what happens when those huge ones close, vs. when you close the ones on a small window at home. Yes, size matters... in curtains that is. The way to make it work for you is to stop slouching and stand straight. More cloth & weight equals more swing at sufficient speed and hung upright. I once owned a PV kilt. Frankly, it didn't breathe enough and was therefore hotter than my wool kilts. It also didn't swish well. I sold it. Soon.

I think we do get silly here sometimes, mashing the details to death, and yes, I do respectfully think that our OP among others, has rejected some perfectly good information for whatever reason. "If you don't want to know, don't ask" can be good advice.

There. Now I'm off my cranky streak, with apologies as needed. That's my confession. Absolution may or may not follow.

Cheers!

[LKM]

I have worked with several different materials over the years as I understand swish it comes down to material properties, thickness/weight, construction, and personal preferences.

First, different materials have different properties and will act differently. Wool is a natural animal fiber that acts far different from cotton or silk, yet PV is made with similar properties to wool.

The thickness is normally measured in ounces per a square yard and is different for different materials as some materials are denser then others. Basically, 11 or 12 oz PV acts more like the lighter woven 13 or 14 oz wool then the heavier woven 16 or 18 oz wool because of the thickness/weight of the material. As wool is a natural material, each batch of woven wool can be slightly different thickness or density there can be differences from one tartan run to the next.

As for construction, pleat depth can and does make a difference just as the skill of the kilt maker can make a difference. Deeper pleats normally have a more natural movement to many peoples eyes, yet this is not alwayse the case.

And then there is the final, and perhaps most important part, personal preferences. Some people would rather have more swing while others would rather have less swing. For many people, what we are most familiar with is often what we like the best. Some people who know the traditional 16 oz 8 yard kilt or the old military 18 oz 8+ yard kilt find that the heavy weight kilt looks better to them when it swigs. As I have said before, and will say again, wear what you like, if you like heavy weight wool, a lightweight wool, PV, or some other material, go with what you like. If you like the reactions you get, then take these reactions into account.

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, just so we are all using the same terms -

The thickness is normally measured in ounces per a square yard and is different for different materials as some materials are denser then others.

The thickness, the density, and the weight are three different things.

The weight of kilt fabric is measured on ounces - of a linear yard at 60 inches wide. So 2,160 square inches. This would mean that one linear yard of 16oz. fabric, right off the bolt, will weigh 16oz. or 1 pound.

One material may be thicker than another but weigh the same. Polar fleece and some Pakistani Acrylic fabrics may be thick but weigh very little. This is usually thought to be why some Acrylic facrics are mistakenly listed as "heavy-weight" when they are thick but very light weight.

Density is different again. Denisty is how tightly atoms are crammed into a material. Lead is denser than Angel food cake. One pound of lead and one pound of Angel food cake both weigh one pound.

There is one other term that we use a lot in kilts that can be confusing at times. That word is 'length'.
We talk about the length of the yardage of fabric used in a kilt. ie an 8 yard kilt.
We also use the word length when we say a kilt is 24 inches long from hem to waistband.

Both are technically correct but we are measuring length in two different directions.
An 8 yard kilt, 19 inches long, will have used less fabric than an 8 yard kilt, 25 inches long. so will weight less.

[Baeau]

[QUOTE=Father Bill;1357947....There. Now I'm off my cranky streak, with apologies as needed. That's my confession. Absolution may or may not follow.

Cheers!.......[/QUOTE]

Ex-Father Bill. please say 3 "I'll say no mores", & this evening, have a double dram of a so-so single malt.

Serious question, does the visual of kilt swing (take an 8yd kilt for the example), vary with the size of the individual. Would there appear to be more with a thinner individual, as opposed to a person of 'imposing' stature?

[Father Bill]

I think you’re dealing with the matter of personal perception but more cloth generally equals more swing, so a big guy would probably have more cloth and a bigger “range” for it to swing.

My thought only.

[Manu]

You know, kilt swing and swish aside and whether or not it makes a kilt any better, I can't help but to think that often times we tend to throw out the window objective facts and truths simply to appease some folks and make people feel better. I truly believe that Xmarks is a unique place where people respect each other and personal preferences, whichever they may be for whatever reasons, but I feel like we can adhere to that etiquette and continue to acknowledge facts like some kilts ARE in fact better than others, the fact that heavyweight worsted wool makes the best material for a top kilt, that a bespoke kilt will always feel and fit better than an off the rack kilt, and that a hand sewn traditionally built 8 yard kilt takes countless hours to produce because it basically is the limited edition with all the bells and whistles. I think when we discount facts, we do our forum a disservice. We can be inclusive and respectful without being ignorant to facts. I get that some materials might be better suited for this or that activity, but when discussing traditional tartan kilts we should be able to stay the facts. Long story short, like Jock often says, buy the best kilt you can afford, wear it, and get on with your life, but let's not start reinforcing inaccurate pre-conceived ideas simply to make people feel good. I hope this does not offend anyone, as it is not meant to.

[Me cousin Jack]

To quantify swish use the unified swish theory

SW GL
___ - ___ = Swish
SS HD


SW~swish
SS~ steady state
GL~glide in stride
HD~dip in hip

[macmanjim]

but I really haven't noticed the different action of the swish of the pleats because I have never been able to watch myself walk down the street to SEE the difference. I don't really pay much attention to other than walking down the street when I'm doing so .......and so far no strangers have come up to me to tell me that there is a noticeable difference .......although I think there must be because that is what I've read, but only READ not really noticeably felt or seen

Walk with the sun behind you and you can see it swish as you walk. I see it when I hike here, which is desert and shadows cast well.

[Terry Searl]

Walk with the sun behind you and you can see it swish as you walk. I see it when I hike here, which is desert and shadows cast well.

By Golly that is clever ! I suppose I have never really concerned my self about the swish......but the next time I am able too, I will do as you suggest......thank-you for the suggestion......and for the smile you have given me

Cheers