Box pleats

[figheadair]

Peter,

Just abit off topic but sort of germain to an earlier post.

In your examinations of older fabrics, is there any evidence for double-weaves, instead of joining two narrow widths?

The reason I ask is that my wife completed a double weave blanket awhile ago on a 36 inch AVL manual dobby loom and the finished width was 59 inches.

Steve, no, I've never come across such a thing in old Highland textiles. The widest piece I've ever encountered was 33 inches, woven in 1726 which in itself was unusually wide for the time when cloth was generally 22-26 inches wide.

[Allan Thomson]

Steve, no, I've never come across such a thing in old Highland textiles. The widest piece I've ever encountered was 33 inches, woven in 1726 which in itself was unusually wide for the time when cloth was generally 22-26 inches wide.

I find it curious that given that there was a need to produce cloth of 2 yard widths for plaid that this was not done in common practice rather than the stitching together of two smaller bolts?

I guess Loom size is one limiting factor as to sizes, but that begs the question why not just make a wider loom?

Is it related to space constraints in a weavers shed prior to mass construction elsewhere (I guess there were specialist weavers within each community or is it an individual exclusively individual home produced garnment - my guess is based on what I've observed in a preserved local farming village that there would have been a specialist weaver in those communities just as there were specialist black smiths, wood turners, etc)?

I'll have to measure the dimensions of the Black Watch plaid I bought some 20 years back but I'm sure it was between 1 and a half yards to two yards (closer to two yards/metres), I cannot recall if they said this was produced on the local mills hand loom or if it was made in a mill in Scotland and shipped over. Anyway it was pretty much 2 by 3 yards and cost less than £100 then - one looks at the much smaller fly plaids online manufacturers are selling as "kilt wear" and realise that the price is massively inflated in proportion to the amount of cloth you're getting!

[figheadair]

I find it curious that given that there was a need to produce cloth of 2 yard widths for plaid that this was not done in common practice rather than the stitching together of two smaller bolts?

I guess Loom size is one limiting factor as to sizes, but that begs the question why not just make a wider loom?

Is it related to space constraints in a weavers shed prior to mass construction elsewhere (I guess there were specialist weavers within each community or is it an individual exclusively individual home produced garnment - my guess is based on what I've observed in a preserved local farming village that there would have been a specialist weaver in those communities just as there were specialist black smiths, wood turners, etc)?

You're absolutely right, weaving was a specialist trade. Each village, depending on its size, would have had one or more weavers, there were also certain villages renown for weaving, for example; Barnkittock (the township of the little plaids) near (and now part of) Crieff.

Weaving was an indoor business i.e. the loom was in the house, not in some outside lean-to or shed. For this reason, weavers' cottages had to be a bit bigger than the standard Highland house. It needs to be understood that before the advent of the flying shuttle (invented by John Kay in 1733) the width of cloth was generally restricted to the width a weaver could throw and catch the shuttle. I don't know how quickly the flying shuttle got into the Highlands but suspect it was quite late because of the extra room it takes up. I weave 'traditional' 28" cloth on a flying shuttle, the width of the beam is 88" which, allowing for room to pass on at least one side, means an uncluttered width of at least 3.5 yards is required, then there's the floor-print taken up by the rest of the loom.
A double width flying shuttle loom would need something like a 5 yard width plus related floor

I'll have to measure the dimensions of the Black Watch plaid I bought some 20 years back but I'm sure it was between 1 and a half yards to two yards (closer to two yards/metres), I cannot recall if they said this was produced on the local mills hand loom or if it was made in a mill in Scotland and shipped over.

That is a bit of a red herring; firstly, it's very unlikely that any commercial cloth was still being hand-woven 20+ years ago and even if it were, the loom would not be the same as that used in the 18th century Highlands.

[Allan Thomson]

You're absolutely right, weaving was a specialist trade. Each village, depending on its size, would have had one or more weavers, there were also certain villages renown for weaving, for example; Barnkittock (the township of the little plaids) near (and now part of) Crieff.

Weaving was an indoor business i.e. the loom was in the house, not in some outside lean-to or shed. For this reason, weavers' cottages had to be a bit bigger than the standard Highland house. It needs to be understood that before the advent of the flying shuttle (invented by John Kay in 1733) the width of cloth was generally restricted to the width a weaver could throw and catch the shuttle. I don't know how quickly the flying shuttle got into the Highlands but suspect it was quite late because of the extra room it takes up. I weave 'traditional' 28" cloth on a flying shuttle, the width of the beam is 88" which, allowing for room to pass on at least one side, means an uncluttered width of at least 3.5 yards is required, then there's the floor-print taken up by the rest of the loom.
A double width flying shuttle loom would need something like a 5 yard width plus related floor



That is a bit of a red herring; firstly, it's very unlikely that any commercial cloth was still being hand-woven 20+ years ago and even if it were, the loom would not be the same as that used in the 18th century Highlands.

The village I'm thinking of is Cregneash on the Isle of Man, it's period is more late 19thC early 20thC and there was a separate weaver's shed, but I guess whilst over here the setup was very similar to a late 19th C early 20th C. Highland Scottish village (there's enough commonness in clothing, textiles and language to make me think the setup would be similar). That said I know that an old man who was a boy when the village was taken over by the Museum who said that the museum changed more things in the village than they give the impression of to visitors so things may have been different in its working life (just found an article which suggests the loom which is currently there is a later addition but it does make reference to weaving sheds in different parts of the Island, and makes it clear that they were attached to the house in a shed).

Re the hand woven looms, but the place I bought the plaid from was Laxey Woollen Mills and they were and are still using Hand Looms which I think would be 19thC in vintage (1881) as that was when Egbert Rydins set the Mill up (with hand looms), then later John Ruskin converted a corn mill into a woollen mill, but it was in the spirit of the Arts and Crafts movement trying to keep old skills alive. I know certainly they're hand weaving lengths of Manx Tartan Cloth (I did have a recent conversation about the width of the Manx Tartan cloth and I think from memory it was something like a yard and a half + in width (but less than 2 yards). According to their history the hand looms were reintroduced post world war II as the sole means of production. So if the Black Watch was woven on site it was hand woven, if it was shipped in then it may not have been. Anything in Manx Tartan was definitely hand woven though.

There were a number of Woollen Mills on the Island, the one at Laxey, the Union Mills (the fleece and the flax I think it was called, outside Douglas) and the Tynwald Mills at St Johns (the Machinery was removed when it was converted into a retail centre, but there are still pieces exhibited outside. I recollect my brother who does a bit of weaving as part of a support role in his job showing me a piece of cloth which he told me was one of the last pieces produced by the Tynwald Mills. Union and Tynwald Mills were mechanical mills.

As you say though they're later and not 18th C but interesting none the less. Whilst there are differences between the Island and the Highlands there is a lot of commonness, particularly with the Island communities. However the Island was Anglicised more completely than the Island's of Scotland, as Manx is only just returning. Obviously with my mixed heritage I've made a point of studying the similarities and connections of the Island and Scotland, and that extend's back to the Pictish period as well as the Norse Gaelic one. Whilst the Kilt is not the traditional form of dress on the Island (but Manx tartan kilts are picking up a vogue in the similar way that Irish and Cornish and Welsh ones are) there are a lot of other similarities in the types of clothing that would have been worn and how they were manufactured. For example there's an interesting pair of Goat Skin Carrane's in the Manx Museum Folk life gallery with the hair still attached to the Exterior. As I've pointed out elsewhere the Links and the shared History between the Isle of Man and the Scottish Isles are very strong indeed although fragmented at times.

Another aside but back on the topic of Scottish Weaving in the 18thC but I recollect a folk tale about a fugitive from Culloden claiming he was a Stewart of Appin, and taking shelter with a blind woman. She felt his plaid and apparently said "that never was a weave that was in Appin Waulked". It may be a myth or she may have been able to tell a regional difference in the cloth despite being blind?

[figheadair]

The village I'm thinking of is Cregneash on the Isle of Man, it's period is more late 19thC early 20thC and there was a separate weaver's shed, but I guess whilst over here the setup was very similar to a late 19th C early 20th C.

Ah, got the context. Yes, the situation was similar in the Highlands with new houses and weaving sheds in use from the mid-19th century.

Another aside but back on the topic of Scottish Weaving in the 18thC but I recollect a folk tale about a fugitive from Culloden claiming he was a Stewart of Appin, and taking shelter with a blind woman. She felt his plaid and apparently said "that never was a weave that was in Appin Waulked". It may be a myth or she may have been able to tell a regional difference in the cloth despite being blind?

It's impossible to comment effectively on folk tale about an event that may or may not have happened over 250 years ago.

[Luke MacGillie]

Anyway my main thoughts are that for military service a garnment needs a degree of neatness & this is only achievable with a degree of prior measurement and preparation which a regimental tailor would have the opportunity to do, but a soldier in the field would struggle to get bang on every time in a hurry.

If they were wearing sewn Philabegs, why would Capt Stewart 2/42 have this in his orderly book?

"New York 9 th April 1759
Parole Plymouth R. Orders
When the Reg t is under arms the officers are always to be in boots & knee brickes, no soldier to
appear for the future either on or off duty but in his plaid well kilted."

Prior to Lord Howe's insistence that the 42nd adopt the little kilt in 58, the only indication we have of its being worn at all is with the 2 drummers in the Glasgow Green image of the 2d Division of the Regiment going thru their final inspection and review prior to deploying to North America.

[Allan Thomson]

If they were wearing sewn Philabegs, why would Capt Stewart 2/42 have this in his orderly book?

"New York 9 th April 1759
Parole Plymouth R. Orders
When the Reg t is under arms the officers are always to be in boots & knee brickes, no soldier to
appear for the future either on or off duty but in his plaid well kilted."

Prior to Lord Howe's insistence that the 42nd adopt the little kilt in 58, the only indication we have of its being worn at all is with the 2 drummers in the Glasgow Green image of the 2d Division of the Regiment going thru their final inspection and review prior to deploying to North America.

That's referring to the Belted Plaid. My point is regarding the improbability of havimg an unsewn Phillabeg in military use still stands.

There is evidence of the phillabeg being used in the American War & also references to it being made from old Plaids as a fatigue Garnment.

What evidence have you got for sleeving waistcoats & adding additional pockets, or of wearing Mitasses, or swapping the Broadsword for a Hatchet? Because the evidence for the Phillabeg would be with that...or if you don't it shows that What soldiers can get away eith visa vi altering kit on campaign tends to stay on the low down.

& You've therefore already avknowledged that there is evidence of Highland soldiers in Phillabegs at the time of their deployment.

[Luke MacGillie]

That's referring to the Belted Plaid. My point is regarding the improbability of havimg an unsewn Phillabeg in military use still stands.

There is evidence of the phillabeg being used in the American War & also references to it being made from old Plaids as a fatigue Garnment.

What evidence have you got for sleeving waistcoats & adding additional pockets, or of wearing Mitasses, or swapping the Broadsword for a Hatchet? Because the evidence for the Phillabeg would be with that...or if you don't it shows that What soldiers can get away eith visa vi altering kit on campaign tends to stay on the low down.

& You've therefore already avknowledged that there is evidence of Highland soldiers in Phillabegs at the time of their deployment.

I am firmly in the interior drawstring camp when it comes to both belted plaids and the early phillabeg. So sewing in pleats gets you no where.

Yes, there is this ca 1756 painting showing the philabeg being worn before arriving in North America:

13256101_10154299363463319_1755759715070158588_n.jpg

There is also this quote Dr. Richard Huck to Lord Loudon on 29 May, 1758.

"The Art of War is much changed and improved here. I suppose by the End of Summer it will have undergone a total revolution. We are now literally an Army of round Heads. Our Hair is about an Inch Long; The Flaps of our Hats, which are wore slouched about two Inches and a half broad. Our Coats are docked rather shorter than the Highlanders, determined Napier says, that the French shall not stick in our Skirts. The Highlanders have put on Breeches and Lord Howe's Filabegs. Some from an Affection to their Gorgets still wear them. Swords and Sashes are degraded; and many have taken up the Hatchet and wear Tomahawks."

As to the rest, I think the leggings for the vast majority of the regiment that, and subsequent years were the Knox style, a wool flapped legging with a toe inset like a gaiter, not the ribbon and bead encrusted types that some modern artists portray. Leather pockets, certainly not the patch pocket affairs, but rather the typical English sporting dress pockets, with leather pocket bags, inset into the chest, just like a sporting jacket of the period.

And truthfully, despite reenactor desires, the best documentation we have for the 42nd Lights is this:

"Crown Point 22 nd November 1759.

As soon as the Regiments arrive in Winter Qrs the new clothing is to be fitted and
waistcoats made as fast as possible that the men may be warmly clad during the severity of the
Winter, and it is recommended to the Commanding Officers that every man has a warm cloth cap
made. The Light Infantry company of each battalion when ordered to join their corps is to remain
as a company of the battalion. The men are to keep their carbines, powder boxes and are to wear
their new clothing but not to cut it into the Light Infantry dress until further orders."

One of my main desires for next year is to get to Perth and see if there is anything else in Stewart's Orderly book to see if they modification were ever authorized. Also need to get to London to the Lloyd's archive and view the Regimental Agent's book, to see what charges for modifications were recorded, or items purchased.

But then there is also the lace issue that is an elephant in the room for pre 61 impressions.....

[Allan Thomson]

I am firmly in the interior drawstring camp when it comes to both belted plaids and the early phillabeg. So sewing in pleats gets you no where.

Yes, there is this ca 1756 painting showing the philabeg being worn before arriving in North America:

13256101_10154299363463319_1755759715070158588_n.jpg

There is also this quote Dr. Richard Huck to Lord Loudon on 29 May, 1758.

"The Art of War is much changed and improved here. I suppose by the End of Summer it will have undergone a total revolution. We are now literally an Army of round Heads. Our Hair is about an Inch Long; The Flaps of our Hats, which are wore slouched about two Inches and a half broad. Our Coats are docked rather shorter than the Highlanders, determined Napier says, that the French shall not stick in our Skirts. The Highlanders have put on Breeches and Lord Howe's Filabegs. Some from an Affection to their Gorgets still wear them. Swords and Sashes are degraded; and many have taken up the Hatchet and wear Tomahawks."

As to the rest, I think the leggings for the vast majority of the regiment that, and subsequent years were the Knox style, a wool flapped legging with a toe inset like a gaiter, not the ribbon and bead encrusted types that some modern artists portray. Leather pockets, certainly not the patch pocket affairs, but rather the typical English sporting dress pockets, with leather pocket bags, inset into the chest, just like a sporting jacket of the period.

And truthfully, despite reenactor desires, the best documentation we have for the 42nd Lights is this:

"Crown Point 22 nd November 1759.

As soon as the Regiments arrive in Winter Qrs the new clothing is to be fitted and
waistcoats made as fast as possible that the men may be warmly clad during the severity of the
Winter, and it is recommended to the Commanding Officers that every man has a warm cloth cap
made. The Light Infantry company of each battalion when ordered to join their corps is to remain
as a company of the battalion. The men are to keep their carbines, powder boxes and are to wear
their new clothing but not to cut it into the Light Infantry dress until further orders."

One of my main desires for next year is to get to Perth and see if there is anything else in Stewart's Orderly book to see if they modification were ever authorized. Also need to get to London to the Lloyd's archive and view the Regimental Agent's book, to see what charges for modifications were recorded, or items purchased.

But then there is also the lace issue that is an elephant in the room for pre 61 impressions.....

But why are you in the drawstring camp? I understand it and accept.it makes sense with a belted plaid, but looking at it objectively it is never going to form the pleats as well as sewing. As I've pointed out. Rawlinson was documented to have a sewn phillabeg in 1720, and within the Highland Regiments as with all other line regiments the skills exist to do the job. So the question is why if there was a far superior way of doing things wasn't it done? I'd say lack of evidence is not evidence of none existance.

You also use the word authorised....there's more than enough evidence to show when soldiers can get away with something not authorised which works for them then they will do.

Generally whrn things get officially implemented it means that a good few people have been doing it for a while and it's observed to be working..mm

[Allan Thomson]

Just a point, you say sewing in pleats gets you nowhere, but I disagree at least with the Phillabeg, as it produces a better garnment (neater pleats, no scruffy overhang, it holds it shape better, higher waistline for warmth).

My hunch is that as I can see clearly the skills were there, it was a case of some using the drawcord, one person fed up of being beasted for scruffy pleats produced in a hurry daring to get his phillabeg stitched, getting away with it, others daring to do so, it being observed that it works & is more practical, someone in command realising it is actually better & making it official when faced with the choice of disciplining the whole regiment for not strictly following dress regulations or making himself seem like he's had this revolutionary idea & claiming credit for it.....

There's more than enough evidence if you look at the forces through time, especially on campaign of how dress can change based on the actions and experience of individuals eho have dared to use a piece of none issue kit or alter issue kit. I don't think a sewn phillabeg would be any different.