The Scots Gaelic Myth

[neloon]

Gaelic may well have this word but Welsh also does so does that mean a common root? Dafydd ar y gareg gwen - David of the white rock. There seem too many similarities to assume that these languages developed in isolation.

The languages began to diverge into "P-Celtic" and "Q-Celtic" in southern France probably around 1000BC. There are many words which are virtually the same though the languages are no longer mutually intelligible.

Alan

[Allan Thomson]

I think there's another factor to consider as well which is what if the P Celt placename were documented or mapped by someone more familiar eith the Q Celt language? This can impact on the way something is spelt which then in future can impact on pronounciation if a language disappears fromnan area.

Manx was written down by a Welsh speaker which makes the spellings somewhat different to Scottish & Irish Gaelic. Then when some English only speakers who are not familiar even with the local dialect pronounce them it can make an impact & there are even two different ways used by some locals to pronounce words. An example of that would be the local legend about the Mhoddey Dhoo. As a child it was pronounced the "Mawdey Dhoo", now a lot of people say the "Moddy Dhoo" (even a few the "Moody Dhoo"), but in fact the Gaelic pronounciation should be "Mawtha Dhoo"... That's only after less than 100 years after the death of the last original Manx speaker... Imagine what happens to a long gone language in the hands of a population speaking another (possibly two different at one point) languages....

My point is let's be very careful when assuming that all Celtic placenames are Gaelic when in fact some of them could equally be Brythonnic or that they are indeed a Celtic language in an area which has constantly changed hands, especially in those areas where there is far more evidence for P Celt & Saxon history.

Finally don't be afraid to discuss the exceptions (ie the Kingdom of Galloway) but also equally important ensure you understand the main & most common & easiest methods of travel were by sea and watercourses & not by land....

[PatrickHughes123]

I think there's another factor to consider as well which is what if the P Celt placename were documented or mapped by someone more familiar eith the Q Celt language? This can impact on the way something is spelt which then in future can impact on pronounciation if a language disappears fromnan area.

Manx was written down by a Welsh speaker which makes the spellings somewhat different to Scottish & Irish Gaelic. Then when some English only speakers who are not familiar even with the local dialect pronounce them it can make an impact & there are even two different ways used by some locals to pronounce words. An example of that would be the local legend about the Mhoddey Dhoo. As a child it was pronounced the "Mawdey Dhoo", now a lot of people say the "Moddy Dhoo" (even a few the "Moody Dhoo"), but in fact the Gaelic pronounciation should be "Mawtha Dhoo"... That's only after less than 100 years after the death of the last original Manx speaker... Imagine what happens to a long gone language in the hands of a population speaking another (possibly two different at one point) languages....

My point is let's be very careful when assuming that all Celtic placenames are Gaelic when in fact some of them could equally be Brythonnic or that they are indeed a Celtic language in an area which has constantly changed hands, especially in those areas where there is far more evidence for P Celt & Saxon history.

Finally don't be afraid to discuss the exceptions (ie the Kingdom of Galloway) but also equally important ensure you understand the main & most common & easiest methods of travel were by sea and watercourses & not by land....

Allan,

I'm not a Gaelic extremist. I don't deny the earlier P-Celtic languages of Scotland and the Germanic Scots language, but I'm saying that Scotland as a kingdom, in its very early days, before King David I, was a Gaelic-speaking nation, with exceptions in the South-East and North-East. Gaelic was once the majority language in Scotland but began to retreat to the Highlands, the South-West and very isolated parts of the Scottish Lowlands when David I established English-speaking boroughs.

What I meant was that the kingdom of Scotland, Alba back then, was a Gaelic-speaking nation. I never denied the Pictish language or the Cumbric dialect of Common Britonnic.

[Allan Thomson]

But again I am questioning your evidence for that & whether it is right to consider Gaelic as any more belonging to the landmass we call Scotland than English. Both are outside incursions pushing into what was a P Celt country. The thing is that there's Pictish Crosses commemorating.battles with the Nothumbrians and Northumbrian Halter fragments found in the Montrose area before the period of the rise of the Kingdom of Scotland. So for the Lowlands a Saxon tongue was in place well before (if there ever was one) a Gaelic incursion into any significant part of Lowland Scotland at all - both obliterating an earlier P Celt tongue.

I'm in favour of Gaelic signs in the Highlands & Gaelic medium education in the Islands. What I am opposed to is the desire to cover over true history in a highly political move to make out that all of Scotland somehow should be Gaelic.

[PatrickHughes123]

https://www.omniglot.com/writing/gaelic.htm

https://newsnet.scot/archive/scotlan...land-language/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilin..._history.shtml

Sources

[Allan Thomson]

Your first article names its sources as exclusively wikipedia - this would not be accepted as a reliable resource in an academic context. I'm a little dubious about some of the setup of the website.

The second article appears more objective & analytical but still does not name its siurces.

The final one is a BBC article - I've observed that the BBC has made many errors & ommissions in it's documentry programs. An example of this would be the programs by Dr Ramirez about Dark ages artwork - a program she ommitted to mention any of the outstanding & unique pieces of rk on the Isle of Man. So I am dubious about it too.

Besides this if you read the articles objectively with 2 & 3 you will note they support several things I have already said & which you don't seem to be seeing. For example they support that the Lowlands were already Saxon speaking when the Scots arrived being part of the Kingdom of Northumbria. They also comment that the Lowland Scots percieved themselves as English living in the Kingdom of the Scots & the Scots dialect was as accepted as Gaelic as a means of national identity.

When it comments about the Lowland areas it talks about Galloway & Ayrshire & as I've already pointed out this was from the sea going Norse Gaelic influences & does not imply a spread across the lowlands. It also mentions some places directly abbuting the Highlands, which have a strong history predating the Scottish invasion.

It also acknowledges that Gaelic placenames can come as loan words rather than implying that there was definitely Gaelic spoken in those areas. What it does seem to brush over except where it suits the article is where words are common to both P & Q Celts.

So I'm afraid you haven't really supported your statement that Gaelic is central to Scotland & Scottish identity or that it was spoken across all of the Lowlands.

My point remains & is supported by all of the articles that Gaelic is like Saxon an invading language and if you believe that the history of Scotland goes deeper than just the influx from Dalriada then you need to recognise it is no more right to put Gaelic on welcome to Scotland signs in the borders thanit is to put it in Brythonnic (infact less right if it is supposed to represent the language of the people of the surrounding areas.

[Father Bill]

Hi Patrick

In the fine lines of academia, it's all about peer-reviewed articles usually published by recognized scholars, in respected journals. None of the articles you cite come close to meeting those criteria.

It's unfortunate - the quality of the publicly available Internet doesn't come anywhere near the academic Internet that's available to university students in the specific disciplines and members only. I'm afraid I couldn't even point you to the journals you would need for the present discussion since although I have a deep interest and some skill as a linguist, my professional memberships are all theological rather than linguistic for obvious professional reasons. I give you one of my best links as an example so you get the idea of what I'm talking about here: https://www.atla.com/Pages/default.aspx As you see, it's for "members".

Sorry to disappoint.

Bill+

[PatrickHughes123]

Besides this if you read the articles objectively with 2 & 3 you will note they support several things I have already said & which you don't seem to be seeing. For example they support that the Lowlands were already Saxon speaking when the Scots arrived being part of the Kingdom of Northumbria. They also comment that the Lowland Scots percieved themselves as English living in the Kingdom of the Scots & the Scots dialect was as accepted as Gaelic as a means of national identity.

Yes in South-East Scotland. The South-West, and the North-East were Gaelic-speaking, except the extreme North-East. When Dal Riadia joined with Pictland to become Alba, the Pictish language and culture died out and they assimilated with the Gaels. The same for the Britons. The Angles, however, did not, they kept their English identity and the English language. Their assimilation into Scotland would not come until much later, even then, they kept the English tongue which would then become Scots. The earliest Gaelic writing was found in North-East Scotland. It was called the Book of Deer.

I don't have anything against earlier P-Celtic languages or the Scots language, I'm actually learning how to speak Scots right now. But again, Gaelic was spoken across most of Scotland, then it was replaced by Scots. Most sources I've read or videos I've watched have this view of history also.

To be honest, it annoys that defending my culture, and not letting people be brainwashed by the commonly believed myth that "Gaelic was only ever spoken in Highland Scotland." gets me labelled extremist. I support the preservation of Scots as well as Gaelic, I consider them both equal. There is a burgh in Scotland I live near to called Rutherglen, which has a possible Gaelic origin, from An Ruadh Gleann, meaning the red valley.

By the way, could you please send me links to articles 2 & 3? When ever I try to go to them on the website, it comes up 'Error 404'.

[Allan Thomson]

I just used the links you provided to access the sites? Am still able to access them at the moment.

I don't agree that Pictish language & culture died out in the true sense (ie ceased to exist) that doesn't happen even in a violent form of takeover. What happened is that the P Celtic Pictish Culture merged with Q Celtic Scottish culture in the places where Q Celt was the linguistic form & it evolved & combined to make a new culture which became considered as "Scottish". The articles you provided made comments about how P Celtic words could combine with Q Celt words to form placenames. Similarly if Pictish culture died out, why do we have words such as Aberdeen, &Aberfeldyremaining as Placenames? Likewish there was a merging of cultures between the P Celtic Picts & the Saxon Northumbrians to form a more uniquely Border Culture.

My point remains that Saxon was in Scotland before the Scots even arrived. Therefore as some 'Gaelic Fanatics' regard English as a language of an oppressor because it has eventually lead to the reduction of Gaelic as a true Language except for in a minority of places & they see Gaelic as more original to the Landmass we see as Scotland & therefore deserving of bilingual status, if we reconsider things in these terms of Saxon having been at a significant level of use in the Lowlands prior to the Dalriadic influx then the idea that Gaelic is any more 'Scottish' than Scots English is is called into highly questionable ground...

Do I think Gaelic was spoken more widely than it was? Yes but in different forms and from different influences & not just as one form comingvfrom Central and Highland Scotland like you seem to suggest & rather than a spreading band across land it was pocketting in from the sea. I also think loan words spread across cultures but not necessarily indicating that those languages were spoken widely in that area.

Do I think Gaelic is any more indigenous to the Landmass of Scotland than Scots English - not really both are languages which have come in from outside, but evolvedi nto a different form distictive to the region.

Do I think Gaelic is worthy of support? Yes I think it is, however as a tool to preserve the culture of the Highlands & Island & help them identify their roots. However it should not be made to look like this is the indigenous culture of the Lowland Scotland as the picture is more complex than that. And it should never ever be allowed to obliterate or call into question the preexisting cultures which were already there when the Scots arrived & this includes the Kingdom of Northumbria. But I also think where relevant P Celtic languages should also be incorporated in some way to the curriculum at least to facilitate an understanding of placenames.

Do I think any of your sources are reliable? Well I'd definitely say that map you provided was highly unreliable given the linguistiplacenames.it suggests as Being Wholly Irish Gaelic when in fact they were Norse Gaelic. I've discussed the reliability of the websites & have struggled to see the background of the people writing the pieces so one has to question what was their agenda. I also think in some cases you're putting an interpretation on things even the original author hasn't tried to do - ie the link you posted said it was a myth that Gaelic has nothing to do with the Lowlands, which is very different to saying that Gaelic is THE true language of the Lowlands like you are making out.

[PatrickHughes123]

I just used the links you provided to access the sites? Am still able to access them at the moment.

I don't agree that Pictish language & culture died out in the true sense (ie ceased to exist) that doesn't happen even in a violent form of takeover. What happened is that the P Celtic Pictish Culture merged with Q Celtic Scottish culture in the places where Q Celt was the linguistic form & it evolved & combined to make a new culture which became considered as "Scottish". The articles you provided made comments about how P Celtic words could combine with Q Celt words to form placenames. Similarly if Pictish culture died out, why do we have words such as Aberdeen, &Aberfeldyremaining as Placenames? Likewish there was a merging of cultures between the P Celtic Picts & the Saxon Northumbrians to form a more uniquely Border Culture.

My point remains that Saxon was in Scotland before the Scots even arrived. Therefore as some 'Gaelic Fanatics' regard English as a language of an oppressor because it has eventually lead to the reduction of Gaelic as a true Language except for in a minority of places & they see Gaelic as more original to the Landmass we see as Scotland & therefore deserving of bilingual status, if we reconsider things in these terms of Saxon having been at a significant level of use in the Lowlands prior to the Dalriadic influx then the idea that Gaelic is any more 'Scottish' than Scots English is is called into highly questionable ground...

Do I think Gaelic was spoken more widely than it was? Yes but in different forms and from different influences & not just as one form comingvfrom Central and Highland Scotland like you seem to suggest & rather than a spreading band across land it was pocketting in from the sea. I also think loan words spread across cultures but not necessarily indicating that those languages were spoken widely in that area.

Do I think Gaelic is any more indigenous to the Landmass of Scotland than Scots English - not really both are languages which have come in from outside, but evolvedi nto a different form distictive to the region.

Do I think Gaelic is worthy of support? Yes I think it is, however as a tool to preserve the culture of the Highlands & Island & help them identify their roots. However it should not be made to look like this is the indigenous culture of the Lowland Scotland as the picture is more complex than that. And it should never ever be allowed to obliterate or call into question the preexisting cultures which were already there when the Scots arrived & this includes the Kingdom of Northumbria. But I also think where relevant P Celtic languages should also be incorporated in some way to the curriculum at least to facilitate an understanding of placenames.

Do I think any of your sources are reliable? Well I'd definitely say that map you provided was highly unreliable given the linguistiplacenames.it suggests as Being Wholly Irish Gaelic when in fact they were Norse Gaelic. I've discussed the reliability of the websites & have struggled to see the background of the people writing the pieces so one has to question what was their agenda. I also think in some cases you're putting an interpretation on things even the original author hasn't tried to do - ie the link you posted said it was a myth that Gaelic has nothing to do with the Lowlands, which is very different to saying that Gaelic is THE true language of the Lowlands like you are making out.

Okay, this is what I'm talking about, Gaelic came to Scotland from Ireland. It then spread to Pictland where as well as replacing the Pictish language, Gaelicized many Pictish names. Same with the Cumbric people. As Alba grew, Gaelic spread. Even before the Norse Gael culture, there were pure Gaels that settled in the South-West about the 6th Century. I've even heard that Dalriada originally existed from Northern Ireland across to South-West Scotland. I know it was the Western Isles, but I've heard that the South-West was also a part of Dalriada.

I may have misrepresented myself, what I meant was, Gaelic shouldn't be treated as a regional language of the Highlands when in fact, long ago in Scotland's history, it was spoken over most of Scotland. It may not be relevant to the Lowlands today, but it was and is historically speaking.

Would Southern Gaelic have been different from Highland Gaelic? Yes. Was Galwegian Gaelic more Norse than the Gaelic of the Highlands? Yes. If it had survived, would Galwegian Gaelic be a different language? Possibly. But the point is, all of these possible historical dialects were all Gaelic ones.

No, Gaelic is not the only true language of Scotland. Scots is another true language and the only other as Gaelic and Scots are the only ones that have survived into the 21st Century.