Pakistan Bits.......

[Baeau]

So, the Court Jester/Village Idiot (depends upon one's point of view) has a few serious questons. "When did Pakistan become a player in the kilt wearing world?". I assume, it was purely for cost. Was it the 'for hire' market? Did people really not care about quality & someone saw a market for cheap goods? The one or two time a year kilt wearer thought no one would know the difference? Do any Pakistani makers, actually, care about the quality of their goods? Or, do they work with one eye on the clock? Any other questions I hadn't thought of?

In my past world, I had people from odd parts of the world try to repro high quality components & offer them cheap. Which was the quality of the product. One individual was offended when I put his brake caliper & the UK standard of the motor racing world caliper side by side. He wouldn't accept that his cut rate item (which was not near the strength or performance of the UK item) would not be a hot seller. "But, you can sell it for $200 & make money", he said. He couldn't understand that a $350K, 242mph Le Mans car would prefer something that worked. Not something that cut cost.

[The Wizard of BC]

It is my understanding that the people of Sailkot, Pakistan have a long history of making stuff. Many of the sporting goods and medical instruments in the world today are made in Pakistan.

It is also my understanding that the current Pakistani kilt phenomenon comes from one family in Edinburgh who started with nothing more than a booth selling refrigerator magnets that play "Scotland the Brave" and Teddy bears with Tartan scarves who built up a virtual empire selling to the Scottish tourists.

Once a market was formed where the tourist could fulfill his dream of "Go to Scotland and get my kilt" for about the same as the other tourist goods he would buy in "The old country", the door was opened to expand manufacturing. The internet was probably more of a help than anything else. (and the myth the greatest detriment) We truly live in a global age. Now a guy can place an order for a couple hundred kilts for a few hundred dollars, open an ebay store, and get rich.

Product can be manufactured in a place where a family of 4 can make a good living on what would not be even a poverty level wage here in the West. I get offers via email on an almost daily basis from Pakistani companies who can send me 500 kilts for as little as $12.00 US dollars each.

We poo-poo and denigrate the less expensive kilts but they sell. And they sell well. It is not the fault of the people who make the stuff but perhaps we, as consumers, who do not educate ourselves on the stuff we buy. And we buy, and buy. We don't make stuff anymore. We want the ease of "Click-add-to-cart" and FedEx overnight delivery.

Just take a look on any of the facebook pages out there today. Read the posts by those who have found that they can get "Their" kilt for the price of a pair of jeans. Go ahead and try to tell one of those guys he just bought a piece of junk. Go ahead and try and see what sort of response you are met with.

The Pakistani kilts have their place. They have been a boon to the Highland Heavy Events athletes and those who just want a kilt to wear once or twice to a burns dinner of their local Games.

So perhaps we should not blame the less expensive kilts. Perhaps we should blame those who have taken shortcuts in manufacturing trying to out-do the imports. Instead of keeping the quality and teaching their customers what that means, we all too often see the old style makers dropping their quality in some attempt to keep a handle on their once exclusive and closed market.

[Garth]

I bought a polo mallet once. Never again

Garth

[OC Richard]

When did Pakistan become a player in the kilt wearing world?"

When I started wearing kilts (1970s) I can't remember seeing any Pakistani things for sale in catalogues or at our local Highland Games. My first trip to Scotland was in 1986 and I don't recall seeing Pakistani tat shops on the Royal Mile. Unlike today, in 1986 there were numerous legitimate Highland Dress shops and Highland Bagpipe makers- pretty much everything was locally made in Scotland.

Which is not to say that they weren't making kilts in Sialkot! I'm sure they were. But I think international trade simply wasn't anywhere near our current levels. We take for granted today's incredibly inexpensive and efficient international shipping, but it's a recent thing.

Was it the 'for hire' market?

From what I've observed (and I've spent quite a bit of time scouring kilt hire websites in Scotland) the intrusion of Pakistani-made Highland Dress in the UK kilt hire industry has been fairly recent. Up until just a few years ago buying ex-hire Highland Dress was a reliable way to get UK-made kilts, jackets, sporrans, etc at low prices.

It was just a couple years ago that I started noticing some Johnny-come-lately kilt hire firms with prices dramatically lower that the previous industry norms. This was a red flag to me and sure enough when I took a look at their offerings I was convinced that they were Pakistani-made.

Did people really not care about quality & someone saw a market for cheap goods?

Sadly that's what's happening all over. An artist friend had an electric pencil sharpener which she had used for around 15 years. It was USA made. Finally it stopped working and she bought a replacement, the same model by the same firm. It broke after a few months. It was made in China. She went to a few different shops and it became apparent that electric pencil sharpeners of the quality of her old one simply no longer existed.

It seems that the consumer is driving this, the consumer that would rather pay $20 for an item that will last a year or so than $30 for an item that will last 10 to 20 years. It makes no sense to me, but there it is.

An example in Highland Dress: I still wear, from time to time, my Ghillie Brogues that I bought in the 1980s. They've been re-soled many times and the uppers are a bit worn-looking and they're not quite as comfortable as they once were. Yet I'm wearing them now because once again a pair of modern Ghillies with moulded cemented soles have fallen apart. It happens at every Highland Games! A piper or drummer has the soles of one of his Ghillies just fall off.

So as of late I've done some digging around for Ghillies made like traditional shoes with leather soles that are stitched on and can be repaired and re-soled.

I found a Scottish maker still making these in my size. He only does wholesale. He only lists one North American stockist. I contacted this stockist and discovered that the stockist only carries the lower-priced moulded cemented-sole Ghillies from that maker. I emailed the maker asking where I can purchase his higher-end Brogues. I have got no response.

Thistle makes traditional-sole Ghillies but not in my size. In larger sizes they only make their cheaper moulded cemented-sole Ghillies.

People have talked about Loake but they don't list Ghillie Brogues big enough.

So I may be forced to buy yet another pair of cheap Ghilllies the soles of which will fall off in a year or two.

Personally (out of both practicality and patriotism) I don't have a single item in my piping outfit that's not British-made.

My pipes are another story. No Pakistani bits (except for, probably, the "silk" drone cords) but one of my sets of pipes has bits from 9 different makers in 6 different countries:

England:
drones (Starck)

Canada:
bass drone bottom section (Dunbar)

Scotland:
chanter (McCallum)
stocks (Ayrshire)
blowpipe (Hardie)
drone reeds (EzeeDrone)

New Zealand:
bag (Gannaway)

Australia:
valve (Moose)

California USA:
chanter reed (Megarity)

[Stoff]

Just a thought concerning your search for high quality Gillies, Have you considered finding a reputable custom shoe maker and have a pair made to measure? It seems to me that if you can afford bespoke quality then go for it. I have been able to have custom made shoes in the past when I was actively involved in historic reenacting and the difference is amazing. That way you end up with shoes that fit YOU, that will last a very long time and can be repaired by most any competent cobbler.

Stoff

An example in Highland Dress: I still wear, from time to time, my Ghillie Brogues that I bought in the 1980s. They've been re-soled many times and the uppers are a bit worn-looking and they're not quite as comfortable as they once were. Yet I'm wearing them now because once again a pair of modern Ghillies with moulded cemented soles have fallen apart. It happens at every Highland Games! A piper or drummer has the soles of one of his Ghillies just fall off.

So as of late I've done some digging around for Ghillies made like traditional shoes with leather soles that are stitched on and can be repaired and re-soled.

I found a Scottish maker still making these in my size. He only does wholesale. He only lists one North American stockist. I contacted this stockist and discovered that the stockist only carries the lower-priced moulded cemented-sole Ghillies from that maker. I emailed the maker asking where I can purchase his higher-end Brogues. I have got no response.

Thistle makes traditional-sole Ghillies but not in my size. In larger sizes they only make their cheaper moulded cemented-sole Ghillies.

People have talked about Loake but they don't list Ghillie Brogues big enough.

So I may be forced to buy yet another pair of cheap Ghilllies the soles of which will fall off in a year or two.

[Tobus]

An example in Highland Dress: I still wear, from time to time, my Ghillie Brogues that I bought in the 1980s. They've been re-soled many times and the uppers are a bit worn-looking and they're not quite as comfortable as they once were. Yet I'm wearing them now because once again a pair of modern Ghillies with moulded cemented soles have fallen apart. It happens at every Highland Games! A piper or drummer has the soles of one of his Ghillies just fall off.

So as of late I've done some digging around for Ghillies made like traditional shoes with leather soles that are stitched on and can be repaired and re-soled.

I found a Scottish maker still making these in my size. He only does wholesale. He only lists one North American stockist. I contacted this stockist and discovered that the stockist only carries the lower-priced moulded cemented-sole Ghillies from that maker. I emailed the maker asking where I can purchase his higher-end Brogues. I have got no response.

Thistle makes traditional-sole Ghillies but not in my size. In larger sizes they only make their cheaper moulded cemented-sole Ghillies.

People have talked about Loake but they don't list Ghillie Brogues big enough.

So I may be forced to buy yet another pair of cheap Ghilllies the soles of which will fall off in a year or two.

If you don't mind my asking, Richard, what size shoe do you wear? I see several Scottish makers offering ghillie brogues with Goodyear welted construction up to size 14US (13UK). And bespoke options with high-quality construction.

[Baeau]

......Sadly that's what's happening all over. An artist friend had an electric pencil sharpener which she had used for around 15 years. It was USA made. Finally it stopped working and she bought a replacement, the same model by the same firm. It broke after a few months. It was made in China. She went to a few different shops and it became apparent that electric pencil sharpeners of the quality of her old one simply no longer existed.

It seems that the consumer is driving this, the consumer that would rather pay $20 for an item that will last a year or so than $30 for an item that will last 10 to 20 years. It makes no sense to me, but there it is.

An example in Highland Dress: I still wear, from time to time, my Ghillie Brogues that I bought in the 1980s. They've been re-soled many times and the uppers are a bit worn-looking and they're not quite as comfortable as they once were. Yet I'm wearing them now because once again a pair of modern Ghillies with moulded cemented soles have fallen apart. It happens at every Highland Games! A piper or drummer has the soles of one of his Ghillies just fall off.

So as of late I've done some digging around for Ghillies made like traditional shoes with leather soles that are stitched on and can be repaired and re-soled.

I found a Scottish maker still making these in my size. He only does wholesale. He only lists one North American stockist. I contacted this stockist and discovered that the stockist only carries the lower-priced moulded cemented-sole Ghillies from that maker. I emailed the maker asking where I can purchase his higher-end Brogues. I have got no response.

Thistle makes traditional-sole Ghillies but not in my size. In larger sizes they only make their cheaper moulded cemented-sole Ghillies.

People have talked about Loake but they don't list Ghillie Brogues big enough.

So I may be forced to buy yet another pair of cheap Ghilllies the soles of which will fall off in a year or two.

Personally (out of both practicality and patriotism) I don't have a single item in my piping outfit that's not British-made.

My pipes are another story. No Pakistani bits (except for, probably, the "silk" drone cords) but one of my sets of pipes has bits from 9 different makers in 6 different countries..........(Megarity)

Richard......I understand the plight of your artist friend, & the pencil sharpener. I use an old Bruning electric eraser (my drafting teacher gave it to me in 1976!) when I cleanup drawings, prior to & after inking. About 3 years ago, it packed up. A trip to the local art supply store was depressing. My choices were plastic, at about 1/4th the weight & a silly cost. I, went home, took the Bruning apart & made it run like new.

The shoe issue is all too common. I've worn western boots for years. Two pair (I had for over 20 years, each) were soled & heeled so many times, there was nothing left to stitch. Now, I can buy an inexpensive pair of boots, for about what it costs to sole & heel a worn pair. Sadly, the western wear retailer has these boots made in India!

[Steve Ashton]

Just a small correction, OC Richard, the shops you see are not Pakistani-owned but by Sikhs (Gold Bros) a quite distinct ethnic grouping although all from the Indian sub-continent.

We are speaking about the country of Pakistan and specifically the city of Sailkot. Not an ethnic or religious affiliation.

While the Gold Bros. are Scottish, the products they sell are made primarily in Sailkot, Pakistan.

[Baeau]

Steve / The Wizard of BC.........in a few simple paragraphs, you summed up, much of society. Living in the middle of the tech world, I've blamed the Internet for the demise of many businesses. Work from the house, no shop rent, no sales tax, et cetera. Add into it cheap goods, & no retailer can compete. And, too often, customers will be plentiful. Two businesses I've worked for are gone due to the inability to compete. We sold quality goods, & stayed away from cheap. Today, many web businesses do not care about customer service. If you don't deal with people, directly, you never learn what customer service means. If memory is correct, there was a thread about a web retailer, with no tele number for a forum member to speak with someone about an issue. Only a contact form on the website.

[The Wizard of BC]

When I first starting in this business of kiltmaking I was much like everyone else. I did not wear a kilt for many years because I had heard the same myths as many others. That you had to have some 'right' or 'entitlement" to wear Tartan.

So I started out like many others, making kilts in solid colors with cargo pockets. But I guess the difference was that I did not copy the Utilikilt. I have made only one Rev-K pleated kilt and then only to figure out how it is done. I wanted a product that was mine. Not a copy of a product designed by someone else.

I also made a conscious decision to open a brick and mortar shop and sell only those kilts that I made myself.

I could have made the decision to do like others. Buy products from someone else and just re-sell them for a profit.

Instead I made a conscious decision to never forget that the guy who just walked into my shop is someone willing to lay down his hard earned money for what I make.

I once walked into one of the most well known kilt shops on the Royal Mile of Edinburgh. I was dressed pretty well in kilt, jacket vest and tie. (I wear my own product)
I walked in and was more than half way down the long shop before the young clerk in trousers even turned around and acknowledged me.
He looked me up and down, and in a very snooty tone said "Oh, I see another American came to Scotland and bought himself a kilt."
To which I replied (After recovering my composure not to smack him) "Actually, I am a Canadian Kiltmaker. I wear the kilt every day. And you sir, just lost a sale." I then turned around and walked out. I was actually treated better in the Pakistani shop right next door.

It is my firm belief that every customer who walks into my shop deserves to see the staff in kilts and be greeted the moment the door ringer goes off. Someone will walk out from behind the counter or from the production room, introduces themselves and shakes the customer's hand. If the customer does not offer their name we ask for it.

I will often spend an hour or more talking to a customer about Tartan, kilts and history without trying to sell him anything. If the customer says that they are interested in a kilt the first thing I ask is for them to describe their perfect kilt. If they don't know, I ask them what they want to do in their kilt.

Some ladies who worked for me for a while described what I do as "The Kilt-a-cation". I don't sell, I teach.

I am never going to get rich doing what I do. But then again, I do not think of myself as a business man - I'm a kiltmaker.

You may also notice that there are many ways to contact me. I have the store, a telephone, email, facebook, X Marks and business cards with my cell phone number. I want my customers to feel that they can contact me because they have come to know their kiltmaker.
If you call the telephone number of the shop, it is me who will answer. "Hello, Freedom Kilts, this is Steve." If you email me, it is me that responds.

I am always in a kilt at the shop. I wear my product. On more than one occasion ladies have come into the shop just to see the guy in a kilt.

And yet it is strange. I will ship a custom kilt off to a guy who has spent a lot of money and often will never hear from him. Not even an email saying that the kilt arrived. If for some reason the kilt does not fit I will hear about it. There have been times when I hear about it third hand. Even as a complaint on one of the other kilt sites.

To me, if you buy something, you at least acknowledge that your purchase arrived and its condition upon arrival. You give feedback.
If something is wrong you immediately contact the company and speak directly to the person who can answer your concerns. Some random guy on an internet forum can't fix a kilt that does not fit or give you your money back for something that is not what you ordered.

When I bought the forum from Hank, I extended this way of thinking to X Marks. Have you ever noticed that every company that advertises on X Marks has their own dedicated forum section?
There is a notice at the top of each advertisers section that says something like -

"This is the personal advertisers section for Freedom Kilts.
This section of the forum was designed to allow our members direct access to Steve at Freedom Kilts.
This section is intended for Steve to have a personal place to post news, sales, and information about his company that they would like our members to know about.
This section is also for our members who want to ask a question of, or make a comment directly to, Freedom Kilts.
Think of this as as your direct one-on-one communication between our members and Steve.
Finally, this section is to give our members a specific place to post reviews of products and the services they received from Freedom Kilts."

This 1-on-1 contact is different than the common thinking in this day and age. Today it is very easy to forget that there is a person behind the products we buy. We have our noses stuck in our smartphones and we buy from large websites that offer the lowest price.

Today we seem to have forgotten the concept of there being a person behind the stuff we buy. We seem to have lost that personal contact and that tends to have people think of the kilt as just another 'thing' we buy.

Personally, I don't have a slick, "one click and you are done" website. I purposely removed all the "Click-add-to-cart" buttons from my website. To me, when you purchase something off-the-rack, or from a website, you are buying some one elses idea of a perfect kilt. I would much rather talk to my customers. Listen to them describe their perfect kilt.

I know and understand that not everyone will come to Freedom Kilts. And that is OK. To most of my customers (and to most of the members of this forum) their kilt is far too special and personal a thing.