Is it Pakistani or Scottish??

[Father Bill]

Let's all just stop pointing fingers at other places. I'm a Canadian too, and I was one who pointed out that this was racist. We all have racists among us.

End it fellows before this thread goes off the rails too.

Father Bill
Forum Moderator

[McCracken140]

The problem was that these pipes were being imported and sold by a Canadian guy who claimed to be the maker. A visit to him proved that the pipes were arriving to his house already made, from Pakistan.
.

That’s the worst part about all this, is the dishonesty employed to take advantage of people who just want to honour their heritage.

[McCracken140]

It should be noted that nobody is being prejudiced against Pakistani people or culture (ie racism) but the quality of their goods that is generally produced (ie discerning standards). This also would apply to any group who produces sub-par quality items, as has been previously noted. But throughout this forum and others (eg Bob Dunsire) we usually just blame Pakistan. While this generalization is not necessarily ok, it does make some sense considering the *majority* of these things are made in Pakistan.

[Steve Ashton]

I personally don't have any problem with the products that we call "pub kilts". I think they fill a niche. The average tourist does not know what a kilt is other than a Tartan skirt. And they want to pay about the same as they did for the other souvenirs of their trip.

But it is quite common to apply and expect one societies norms, to be the same in a different society. This is even more so when one society makes a product that is used by another. People seem to expect that the people making the thing, to feel about the product and approach it in the same way.

Let's take, just for example, the idea of intellectual property. In some countries it is expected, it is the norm, that if someone comes up with an idea - that someone else may use that idea and beat the original to market. In Pakistan they actually have a word for it. Here in the West, we call it theft.
This has led to the Scottish trade shows not having any new products out on display. If someone wishes to see the new product, it will be pulled from under the counter and shown in a way that it cannot be photographed by someone walking by.
I personally know of one Scottish maker who had his new sgain design laying out on a table. He did not hear the click of the cell phone camera. Before he knew it and was able to be in full production, an entire shipping container arrived in Scotland filled with copies.

There is a fairly famous case currently involving a product logo and the brand "Supreme". In the US, where the brand started, the law is based on "First to use". The first person or company to use a brand 'owns' it.
In places like the Middle East and China the laws are different. There it is "first to file". So the Supreme originators did not file a copyright in China. A Chinese company filed first. So they can legally produce products using that brand.

In Pakistan they do not have the heritage, the history, around the kilt that is in Scotland or among ex-pat Scots. They do not view the kilt from the same societal norms. They use pipes to play their music, not Scottish music. To them the pipes are Pakistani in origin that were adopted by the rest of the world.
They dress much the same as they would for their own festivals, not the way a Scot or ex-pat would dress. The pipe bands you see on Youtube like I posted earlier, are an annual competition among the companies that make, among other things, pub kilts. So they wear their product. Along with everything else that the company makes. All at the same time. The same way they would wear their Pakistani festival wear.

Many of us in the west do not understand this idea of using the kilt as Pakistani festival wear. We see it as odd or "wrong". And yet, to a Pakistani in Sailkot, the way they wear it is the norm.

So to expect someone from a different culture to be able to make something to the standards, and to be worn a totally foreign way, is to not understand that different culture from their standpoint.

This brings up the old "ugly tourist" joke. A tourist couple are stepping off the plane at their tourist destination. They are in their matching aloha shirts, shorts, with four cameras around their necks. The man nudges his wife saying "Ethel, Ethel, look at all the foreigners."

[Katia]

I’ve done some thinking on this the last few hours, and I think the end moral is that the second hand Highland dress economy should be promoted more: no Scots (or whoever else makes good stuff) producers are losing their livelihood, and everyone gets quality kit for cheap.

Secondhand assumes that a person is of a standard and common size and will have many secondhand items to choose from, though.

[Karl R]

Let's take, just for example, the idea of intellectual property. In some countries it is expected, it is the norm, that if someone comes up with an idea - that someone else may use that idea and beat the original to market. In Pakistan they actually have a word for it. Here in the West, we call it theft.
This has led to the Scottish trade shows not having any new products out on display. If someone wishes to see the new product, it will be pulled from under the counter and shown in a way that it cannot be photographed by someone walking by.
I personally know of one Scottish maker who had his new sgain design laying out on a table. He did not hear the click of the cell phone camera. Before he knew it and was able to be in full production, an entire shipping container arrived in Scotland filled with copies.

Just as a word of caution to those of you who own intellectual property. In the U.S., taking a photo of someone's sgian design would not be considered "theft of trade secrets." One of the principal elements regarding a "trade secret" ... it actually has to be kept secret. Having the design sitting on a table in plain view in public ... that's not going to cut it.

I'm not as familiar with trade secret law in the UK, Canada, or the EU, but I would recommend similar levels of caution in those countries. Keep secrets under lock and key. Don't allow anyone access to the secret unless they've signed an NDA.

[McCracken140]

Secondhand assumes that a person is of a standard and common size and will have many secondhand items to choose from, though.

Of course- nothing I said excludes people from buying new or altering old stuff.
But economically, it is better, if the interest of price outweighs fit, that people buy used rather than Pakistani.

[Steve Ashton]

No, not theft of trade secrets, but it would have been violation of copyright if the design had been under copyright.

But it ended up being a lost idea because someone else flooded the market with a less expensive copy.

[OC Richard]

I have followed this thread and I can only say that the underlying anti-Pakistan prejudice apparent in the posts is quite disturbing. Perhaps this is something acceptable in the USA but it is certainly not here in the UK.

Yes there's an anti-Pakistani prejudice in the Highland piping world, and an anti-Chinese prejudice in the ordinary band/orchestral musical instrument world.

It's not a prejudice about people or race, but a prejudice about manufactured products, which is based on the established track history of the tendencies of their products.

If you see clarinets from 100 different Chinese firms and they're all terrible, and bagpipes from 100 different Pakistani firms and they're all terrible, you develop low expectations.

But there are the rare, very rare, outliers!

One could lay two sets of Highland pipes on the table, a Pakistani-made set from that ONE firm that makes fairly decent pipes, and a Scottish-made set from that ONE firm that makes sub-par pipes, and conclude that Pakistani and Scottish pipes are comparable.

[MacRob46]

I spent 14 years directly dealing with several "Scottish" suppliers in Sialkot. At no time during that period, did I see anything from them that was stamped or otherwise labeled as made in Scotland. Nor did I market these items as anything other than what they were, which is to say Pakistani knockoffs. I did get a set of pipes once and the criticisms leveled against them are correct, based on my experience with just one supplier. They are nearly impossible to tune and keep in tune if you ever get them in tune. Maybe that does not apply to all of the makers.

As far as the clothing, it was clearly not made in Scotland. Fit and finish could be suspect. I will say that the bonnets made by my suppliers were very good quality and for the most part were correctly sized. I am still wearing a couple of them five years after selling the business. Leather goods were variable in quality and I sometimes had to make repairs to things that were right out of the shipping bag. But, we sold these goods at a reasonable price and outfitted a number of pipe bands with inexpensive gear. I did not buy sgians or dirks from them.

I also found the people running the Pakistani companies to be honest and forthright and, while eager to sell you stuff, they were also quick to take care of any problems with the merchandise we received that we could not fix ourselves. Once they quit calling me in the middle of the night to solicit orders, we had an excellent relationship! With their products our company helped a lot of people complete their outfits with "entry level" belts, sporrans, bonnets, etc., not to mention Clan Crest blazer badges.