Kilt question

[Dirk95]

Hi All,
Hope you are doing well. Just a thought if you are in the market for a kilt how do you know if your bespoke kilt is a good standard or not. I know this may have been brought up before, and I know Steve Ashton explained how to check if the stabilizer and canvas has been fitted, but are there any other things to look out for. In my case I picked 3 well known and respected makers and I'm very pleased with them, passing the stretch test as per Steve's advice,the cloth from Lochcarron and the stitch work being very well done. I know you pay your money and you take your chances especially if you are new to Highland dress. What are your feelings about this and what are the main things you would check.
Dirk95
Derek

[Barb T]

One thing I would check is to make sure that the apron edges, underapron edges, and pleats do NOT taper all the way to the top of the kilt - should actually flare a little at the top so that the kilt can sit at the waist and with the rise flaring above to accommodate the rib cage. Otherwise, the kilt simply sags down until the top is at your waist, because you can't buckle it tightly at the waist, if the top edge of the kilt is actually smaller.

See Steve's post and mine on the following page: http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...76/index3.html

[Steve Ashton]

Bespoke means a totally custom garment. There should be no -

you pay your money and you take your chances

A Made-To-Measure (MTM) kilt is where you send in a set of measurements and the maker uses their stock patterns and techniques. But with Bespoke the customer specifies everything.


Here are my personal 'touch stones' that I look for in a well made and well fitting kilt.

In addition to passing the "stretch test" -

The stitching should be completely invisible. In fact the whole reason for hand stitching a kilt is so that there are no, none, nada, stitches visible on the outside of the garment.

Take a look at the alignment of the Tartan pattern in the back of the kilt where the pleats are sewn. The Tartan lines should be perfectly aligned. Even one yarn off and you will be able to see 'stair steps' from across the room.



Look at the apron facings, the fringe, and the strap hole if there is one. The strap hole is the weakest part of the entire garment so should be fully reinforced. The facings should lay flat and should not pucker. The fringe should be even and well stitched.

Did the maker steam the apron facings so that the Tartan aligns on the inside?



Is the stitching invisible, neat and tight. Is the fringe even and aligned.




Look at the small details like the little "Apron Tips" where the bottom of the kilt at the deep and reverse pleat are turned up. These should be stitched neatly, firmly and not puckered.



Now put the kilt on.
Do not assume that you know where the waist of the kilt should be. Reach around to the back and with your finger, find the bottom of where the pleats are sewn. This is "the bottom of the Fell Area". You adjust the waist up or down until the bottom of the Fell Area is at the crest or widest part of the hips and buttocks.

Now, with the kilt on, look in a mirror. Look at the front apron. There should be no puckers in the fabric and no distortion of the Tartan pattern.

The sides of the apron should gently curl around your legs. The bottom corners should not flip outward. There should be no gap at the bottom corner of the apron and the first pleat. the width of the first pleat should be the same as all the others.



In the back all of the pleats should hang vertical and parallel. There should be no "Shower Curtain" folds in the back. From just a few feet away you should almost not be able to see any pleats.



The pleats should not splay outward or take an "A line" skirt shape at the sides.

There should be no bulging outward or pulling inward of the Fell Area. The silhouette should be a nice smooth line from the waist down to the bottom of the kilt.

In my opinion, a bespoke kilt should be a work of art as much as a garment.

[Jock Scot]

Both Barb and Steve make very good and valid points. But how does a newcomer to kilts make sensible decisions on what to buy? Well, as the OP has done he asks questions on a website such as this. The problem is------ and I think it is a relatively new one---- there are kilts and there are kilts and these days, I would guess, bespoke kilts are in a minority, but is the safest bet.

So what are we getting for our money? A fully bespoke kilt will be expensive and is probably financially beyond the reach of many and is also not justified for the beginner who does not have the use or need of a bespoke kilt. Fair enough. So that leads us to the plethora of other choices ranging from a glorified table cloth to some extremely well built but not bespoke kilts. The problem then is, what are we getting for our money?

Sadly getting what you think you are buying is not always what you get, as members(too many) on this website have sadly found out. I am afraid this probably happens rather too often to be comfortable with and it will, because a newcomer to kilt wearing will tend to buy at a price without looking at the quality, which again is not surprising because they don't know what they are looking for or, at. Make no mistake though, there are excellent deals out there for reasonable prices that will do the job more than adequately, for those looking for a deal.The old saying does nearly always apply however, "you usually get what you pay for".

So for me I first look for a reputation, good or bad--------remembering that good reputations are hard earned and bad reputations are easily gained-------- and that goes for anything I buy ranging from fishing tackle and kilts to combine harvesters and even that is not necessarily reliable, particularly if you are not going down the genuinely bespoke route, but a website such as this does after time, lead one to following a certain line, whilst also, leading one to avoid other certain courses of action that are probably best left alone.

HURRY SLOWLY!

[OC Richard]

Barb's book The Art Of Kiltmaking is well worth its price just for the section on how to tell a well-made kilt from one that isn't.

There are great photos showing a number of different ways that kiltmaking can go wrong, and comparison photos showing these things all done correctly.

The price of the book is money well spent if it saves you making a $600 mistake.

[Barb T]

Dirk95 - it you're interested in The Art of Kiltmaking, you can order it from Amazon UK.

[Dr Bee]

how do you know if your bespoke kilt is a good standard or not? What are your feelings about this and what are the main things you would check?

If a kilt is truly "bespoke" then the chances are you are likely to be on to a good thing. Here in Scotland we are in a fortunate position - most of us will live within relatively easy reach of a Highland Outfitter - a tailor - who will know his subject and be able to measure his client with high expertise and explain what the kiltmaker needs to know and what the kiltmaker will do to make your kilt "bespoke" as opposed to something pulled off the shelf which happens to match your measurements. Plainly this kind of service costs a few bob more than one might expect to pay in those establishments which sell highland tat. No names here, but you'll see where my kilts have come from on my profile page.

In Scotland a good Highland outfitter will offer nothing other than a bespoke kilt - it will be made to your measurements exactly, in exactly the cloth you have selected and in the length of cloth you have selected, e.g. 8 yards. You will choose the number of straps, knife or box pleating, pleating to sett or stripe, fringe or no fringe and, not least, the degree to which it is hand-made (preferably 100%) as opposed to machine-stitched. If you watch Ken MacDonald's four little videos on Kiltmakers.com you will get some idea how this works as he explains the four different grades of kilt they sell - plainly you can have a fully bespoke kilt which is 100% machine-stitched. Or you can go all the way and have a fully bespoke kilt which is 100% hand stitched and in this respect the choice is yours. It seems to be generally accepted that machined kilts tend to adopt the dreaded A shape while hand-made kilts do not. If a Highland Outfitter does not know all this and explain to you which 'grades' of kilt he is able to offer then I would be reluctant to recommend them.

Beyond that, as a consumer of the product, having made my bespoke choices my interests are in how well it fits and how well it hangs (no A shape). Again we Scots are fortunate in that one can visit the shop for fittings and revisit for re-fiittings - but in the end it should be perfect. Hopefully it will remain perfect over many, many years.

Now I know that much of what I've said could be applied to any 'made-to-measure' kilt - a kilt perhaps made to a formula or pattern into which your measurements are fed - probably something that could be said of most kilts ordered online. I guess for me what makes a kilt "bespoke" is the level of input I have into its production and the outfitters I have used have allowed me do that. No doubt some will say I have merely described a decent 'made-to-measure' process, - perhaps I have to some degree - but I consider my kilts to be bespoke and of a not merely 'good' quality but an excellent quality. I enjoy wearing them and I take pride in wearing them and surely these are important tests for, although I've never owned one, I have seen kilts which would sadly fail these tests by a hefty margin.

[Katia]

I guess if I was ordering from a reputable ("well known and respected" as OP says) maker, I wouldn't feel the need to test the final product? Is it naive of me to assume that someone who has built a reputation for good work will continue to work to the same standard and that I won't need to police the kilt to make sure they did a good job?

[Barb T]

To be honest, I hope that everyone I make a kilt for scrutinizes it and lets me know immediately if there's something they're not happy with. I'm human, and if I've made a mistake, I want to know about it so that I can fix it, even if I have to buy another piece of tartan and sew another kilt to make it right. The other reason I want people to let me know if they spot something they don't like is that most people don't really understand how a proper kilt is made, and it would hurt me deeply if someone said negative things about my kiltmaking that are, in fact, the marks of a well-made kilt. If they talk with me about it, I can educate them. If they don't, I can't.

I've had people complain about the little bit of tapered hem behind the deep pleat on the apron edge and the tapered hem on the underapron edge, and they think I've blundered and needed to compensate. Not true (see http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...de-kilt-40778/). I made a kilt many years ago for a customer who was unhappy that all of the pleats weren't exactly the same depth, and he wondered if I had skimped on tartan. Not true (see http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...insides-76521/). And quite recently, I had a customer who thought I had made a mistake because the underapron edge next to the pleats wasn't folded at exactly the same place in the tartan as the apron edge next to the pleats. Perfectly understandable question to ask, but I would have hated to have him think that I'd blundered. Because of the way a kilt is laid out, these never match (and it doesn't matter anyway, because no one ever sees the underapron anyway when the kilt is being worn).

[Dirk95]

Thanks for all those that replied, some of the replies are really great.With the knowledge of Babs T, Steve A, and the one and only Jock Scot you can't go wrong if you take that knowledge with you when going for a kilt. When I got my 3 kilts I travelled to Scotland each time ( spending a few days up there ) and visited the shop t had I had picked at the time per kilt purchase, and I knew what to ask as being brought up with kilts ( my father being a proud Scot soldier B W the RHR ). It was always a great experience, from picking the Tartan, which mill I wanted the cloth from(Lochcarron), picking set or stripe. Thanks Babs T for putting me on to your book which I will be ordering in the not so distant future. I agree with Jock saying HURRY SLOWLY don't be afraid to ask questions, and do the homework and you won't go far wrong.