Weird white thread at selvedge - MOD RRS tartan

[Tobus]

I recently purchased 10 metres of what was advertised as MOD surplus Royal Regiment of Scotland tartan, double-width. I didn't notice it in the seller's photos, but when it showed up I immediately noticed a prominent white yarn at the selvedges. I've discussed this with a few people elsewhere, and the consensus seems to be that it's strange. I cannot find any online photos of any RRS kilts that have this at the bottom.

Has anyone here seen this before? It was suggested by figheadair that it could be a guide thread for the tuck selvedge. I'm wondering if it could be removed safely (perhaps by snipping it every few inches and pulling it out) without degrading the integrity of the selvedge. And on that note, I have to say that the selvedge looks pretty rough. As you can see below, the weft threads loop pretty far out past the edge, and very unevenly. It seems to be worse in the green fields. Between the quality of the selvedge and the silly white thread, I would be very hesitant to go to the expense of having a kilt made from this. I'm actually wondering if this material was rejected by the MOD, which is why it got sold off as "surplus" and at a bargain-basement price. Aside from that, it seems like pretty good heavy tartan.

So, kiltmakers and others who handle a lot of tartan including government stuff, what are your thoughts? Have you ever seen government-spec tartan with this odd thread?

[Pleater]

I'm not familiar with MOD tartan fabric, but on cheaper stuff I have removed several lines of thread at the edge in order to get rid of it. It is usually rather stiff coarse stuff and would have been unpleasant to have against the skin, so making a hem was not going to work. It was not difficult to remove. The fabric is rather unkempt now - but it is at least wearable and no longer edged with orange. I would think that removing a single thread would be far less work, and would not alter the edge all that much. I'd not worry too much about a little irregularity at the selvedge - I had thought of using some hemming tape to fold over the loose threads, half expecting the edge to become draggled, but it has remained unchanged. This is a photo of an original edge and the unpicked result.

[The Wizard of BC]

I would guess that over the years I have seen about 12 to 14 of the current, machine sewn/hand finished, 16oz wool RRS kilts.

I had three in my shop for many years.

None of them had the white thread you show.

In fact I have never seen that white thread on the selvedge of any kilt quality fabric. The only time I have ever seen it on any Tartan fabric were the few Marton Mills Poly/Rayon fabrics with the fringe edge and on some very light weight, fringe edged fabrics at my local fabric store.

[figheadair]

So, kiltmakers and others who handle a lot of tartan including government stuff, what are your thoughts? Have you ever seen government-spec tartan with this odd thread?[/IMG]

The key point here, which we have discussed elsewhere, is that this is not MOD spec tartan, well certainly by from Hainsworth as the label suggests, and is being mis-sold as such. I can say that without equivication as I have been in contact with the firm, they confirmed the fact and were exploring options via the seller/eBay.

[Tobus]

I would think that removing a single thread would be far less work, and would not alter the edge all that much. I'd not worry too much about a little irregularity at the selvedge...

Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to have to do. Hopefully, if I can use a thread cutter to reach in and sever it every few inches, I can then just pull the white thread out without altering the selvedge. I would think that the friction of the tucked yarns going through a dozen or so warp threads would still stay put even though their looped ends are dangling further out than before. I might also try using some tweezers to see if I can find the ends of the tucked yarns and tug on them a bit, in the hopes that I can draw those sloppy looped ends tighter against the last warp yarn. It may be too tight a weave to do that with tweezers, though, and even if it were successful, I'd have to do that on thousands of individual yarns to clean up the whole 10 metres worth. Probably not worth the effort!

My last-ditch solution would be to see if I can dye that white thread with a dark green or blue dye, very carefully, in the hopes that it will at least darken it to be less noticeable.

[Father Bill]

*SNIP*

My last-ditch solution would be to see if I can dye that white thread with a dark green or blue dye, very carefully, in the hopes that it will at least darken it to be less noticeable.

If you resort to that one, what about dye-water in an old (and therefore disposable if need be) fountain pen? For that matter, what about an indelible fine-point marker?

Just a thought or two.

[Tobus]

I would guess that over the years I have seen about 12 to 14 of the current, machine sewn/hand finished, 16oz wool RRS kilts.

I had three in my shop for many years.

None of them had the white thread you show.

In fact I have never seen that white thread on the selvedge of any kilt quality fabric. The only time I have ever seen it on any Tartan fabric were the few Marton Mills Poly/Rayon fabrics with the fringe edge and on some very light weight, fringe edged fabrics at my local fabric store.

Interesting, thanks. I'm certain this is not a poly material. It is wool, and based on weighing it, it's a solid 16oz nominal weight or better. The bundle is too heavy for my digital scale, but on my analog scale it comes out around 11 pounds. If my math is right, 1000cm x 144cm = 155 square feet. With nominal 16oz material being based on 15 square feet (36in x 60in), this bundle should weigh 10.33 pounds. So it actually is more like 17oz cloth, as near as I can tell from the rounding error on my scale. Everything I observe about the cloth seems good, and should be as suitable as any other heavyweight tartan except for that silly white thread.

It's quite the mystery, though, as figheadair has determined that it's not from Hainsworth. I just hope it's not an Asian-origin counterfeit, although that could explain the ridiculously cheap price.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I had a good-sized hunk of 15 oz. wool tweed which I bought from Marton Mills which had a similar, silvery/white thread running along next to the edge. After deciding that it was not practical to try to remove it, dye it, etc. I sent it to Barb and she made me a knife pleated kilt from it with the bottom hemmed. As far as I can tell, it works just fine and you don't really see or feel any difference with the hem. It was certainly more work to make one with a hem if other options don't exist, but it can be done by a good kiltmaker.

The really odd thing though, is that we also bought a small piece of the exact same weave and pattern in a slightly different shade for my wife to make something out of and her fabric does not have the white line. I have no idea what's up with that, and neither did the ladies I deal with at Marton Mills.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kkg1hok5vga7n9/tk3.jpg?dl=0

[Pleater]

I used a small crochet hook to remove the threads I did not want, just started at one end and drew out an inch or so, snipped it off, another inch, snip - but I have far more patience than the average.
I am happy to spin wool with a knitting needle as an improvised spindle, or hand knit a jedi robe, or sew and embroider an English smock entirely by hand.

To remove a single thread from a kilt length would just mean finding a couple of cds to listen to and working along the length carefully.

The unwanted threads in my fabric were best taken out as they were very harsh to touch, so turning them to the inside would not have been a good idea.

[figheadair]

I recall seeing this white thread on some Wilsons' specimens too.

Here's a piece of 42nd tartan from a Loyal North British Volunteers' kilt.


And one from a 42nd Crimera era kilt.


This was not the norm and, I think, not restricted to military cloth. The thread hasn't been tested but I think it might have been linen which would have had the effect of strengthening the selvedge. This could only be done because the cloth was not fulled after weaving, that would have caused the cloth to runkle because of the different properties of each type of yarn.