Something about red waistcoats with regularion doublets & prince charlies?

[Kriegbert]

https://pin.it/2PdLak3

We’ve seen illustrations & I’ve seen real life examples that look very neat, but is it true that some feel redwaistcoats are associated with livery? Ie servant uniforms & thus not really proper? I’d like more info on nontartan & non-jacket cloth waistcoat colors. Thanks

[Steve Ashton]

I often wear different colored waistcoats.

[Troglodyte]

https://pin.it/2PdLak3

We’ve seen illustrations & I’ve seen real life examples that look very neat, but is it true that some feel redwaistcoats are associated with livery? Ie servant uniforms & thus not really proper? I’d like more info on nontartan & non-jacket cloth waistcoat colors. Thanks

Red waistcoats for formal Highland wear were common, and sometimes specified in the how-to-wear-it guides, until about the 1980s. They can look very smart with a dark coloured doublet and an essentially green or blue tartan kilt.

More care might be needed with a red tartan, so as to compliment tones or shades, rather than clash.

Doeskin has always been a favourite cloth for waistcoats, as it is soft and supple, and with less nap than moleskin or velvet. Also, the range of colours and shades is extensive, all through the spectrum from white to black.

A besoke tailor will have sample books he will be happy to show you, and having a waistcoat made bespoke is not greatly different from buying off-the-peg, in my experience. But remember the weight of cloth needs to be the same or less than the jacket.

You need have no fears that a red waistcoat is too much like livery, any more than a dinner-jacket is the uniform of waiters. Livery is usually cut and worn like dress uniform, and follows certain dress codes. Debrette's guides to etiquette, correct form and modern manners can help remove doubt.

[Kriegbert]

Red waistcoats for formal Highland wear were common, and sometimes specified in the how-to-wear-it guides, until about the 1980s. They can look very smart with a dark coloured doublet and an essentially green or blue tartan kilt.

More care might be needed with a red tartan, so as to compliment tones or shades, rather than clash.

Doeskin has always been a favourite cloth for waistcoats, as it is soft and supple, and with less nap than moleskin or velvet. Also, the range of colours and shades is extensive, all through the spectrum from white to black.

A besoke tailor will have sample books he will be happy to show you, and having a waistcoat made bespoke is not greatly different from buying off-the-peg, in my experience. But remember the weight of cloth needs to be the same or less than the jacket.

You need have no fears that a red waistcoat is too much like livery, any more than a dinner-jacket is the uniform of waiters. Livery is usually cut and worn like dress uniform, and follows certain dress codes. Debrette's guides to etiquette, correct form and modern manners can help remove doubt.

I’m wondering if the introduction of these solid colour waistcoats had anything to do with saxon dinner jackets; around the thirties & forties especially for warm weather black tie (but also black dinner jackets) men often wore red, & other colours like blue for their waistcoats.

an example can be seen at the bottom of the page: https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/tu...dinner-jacket/

[Troglodyte]

The reference you make looks like a period fashion attempt to add colour to an otherwise all-white evening outfit, and the darker shades work well in artificial light. White dinner jackets were normal in warm (tropical) climates, and were often 'sharkskin' cloth, but many men shunned them, as being too brash or 'Hollywood' in style.

Dinner jackets were often made in 'midnight blue' as it appears darker and richer than the more usual black, when seen under artificial light - the Duke of Windsor is said to have preferred this colour.

There are conventions and common practices with evening wear, but the choice of colour and material comes down to individual taste. The colours, cloths and style options are almost endless, if you feel daring enough.

[OC Richard]

We’ve seen illustrations & I’ve seen real life examples that look very neat, but is it true that some feel red waistcoats are associated with livery?

The historian in me wants to look at the way Highland Dress evolved on its own terms, without projecting onto Highland Dress notions which might come from outside it.

I do need to point out that the Prince Charlie coatee is a 20th century invention so there's far less tradition to talk about.

I’d like more info on non-tartan & non-jacket cloth waistcoat colors.

I always like to look at the big picture, the long view.

If you go back into the 18th century waistcoats generally contrasted with the jackets.

Before the invention of colour photography we have to rely on paintings. Happily in the 1860s Queen Victoria commissioned portraits of 56 gents wearing Highland Dress.

Of the men whose waistcoats can be seen, they break down as follows:

14 tartan
13 matching the jacket
10 red
3 white or off-white
1 brown/brick-red
1 charcoal grey

Here's a tartan waistcoat and a red waistcoat



In the book The Scottish Tartans, printed around the end of World War One but illustrating Edwardian Highland Dress, waistcoats in buff and yellow can be seen in addition to red



Four more gents from The Scottish Tartans wearing contrasting waistcoats. The buff with overcheck, lower right, is a typical equestrian waistcoat today.



Now of this c1850-c1920 stuff concerns the period when the Doublet and the Argyll were pretty much the only styles of Highland jacket seen.

Once we get into the 1920s and 1930s the Coatee or Prince Charlie Coatee begins getting popular. It's one of several new 20th century Evening jacket styles which appear then.

Interestingly when the Prince Charlie appears it's not the way we always see it today, in black, with black waistcoat and black bow tie. At that time it's also seen in colours, with coloured and tartan waistcoats, and worn with lace jabot. (Note the properly done cuffs.)



The old Victorian doublet has continued to be made and worn, however for some unknown reason, when it suddenly had a half-dozen other styles of Evening jackets to compete against by 1930, some began calling it the "regulation" doublet. (Since it's a purely civilian style, who can say what regulation is being referred to.)

Here's a doublet being worn with red waistcoat in the 2nd half of the 20th century

[Kriegbert]

The historian in me wants to look at the way Highland Dress evolved on its own terms, without projecting onto Highland Dress notions which might come from outside it.

I do need to point out that the Prince Charlie coatee is a 20th century invention so there's far less tradition to talk about.



I always like to look at the big picture, the long view.

If you go back into the 18th century waistcoats generally contrasted with the jackets.

Before the invention of colour photography we have to rely on paintings. Happily in the 1860s Queen Victoria commissioned portraits of 56 gents wearing Highland Dress.

Of the men whose waistcoats can be seen, they break down as follows:

14 tartan
13 matching the jacket
10 red
3 white or off-white
1 brown/brick-red
1 charcoal grey

Here's a tartan waistcoat and a red waistcoat



In the book The Scottish Tartans, printed around the end of World War One but illustrating Edwardian Highland Dress, waistcoats in buff and yellow can be seen in addition to red



Four more gents from The Scottish Tartans wearing contrasting waistcoats. The buff with overcheck, lower right, is a typical equestrian waistcoat today.



Now of this c1850-c1920 stuff concerns the period when the Doublet and the Argyll were pretty much the only styles of Highland jacket seen.

Once we get into the 1920s and 1930s the Coatee or Prince Charlie Coatee begins getting popular. It's one of several new 20th century Evening jacket styles which appear then.

Interestingly when the Prince Charlie appears it's not the way we always see it today, in black, with black waistcoat and black bow tie. At that time it's also seen in colours, with coloured and tartan waistcoats, and worn with lace jabot. (Note the properly done cuffs.)



The old Victorian doublet has continued to be made and worn, however for some unknown reason, when it suddenly had a half-dozen other styles of Evening jackets to compete against by 1930, some began calling it the "regulation" doublet. (Since it's a purely civilian style, who can say what regulation is being referred to.)

Here's a doublet being worn with red waistcoat in the 2nd half of the 20th century

Is there a particular explanation or significance for the black doublet with red trimmings? I have also seen the inverse: red doublet with black trimmings. Like below:

https://www.usakilts.com/regulation-doublet.html

First impression from the colour scheme I had when I came across these were hunt coats worn during foxhunts, or perhaps toastmasters.

Here's a blue one
https://kiltmaster.com/regulation-do...navy-blue.html

[OC Richard]

Is there a particular explanation or significance for the black doublet with red trimmings?

Not that I know of. I've seen Evening jackets in several colours trimmed in several colours: metallic gold or silver, contrasting colours, and matching colours.

In Victorian times one sometimes sees tan or beige jackets trimmed in dark brown.

Black jackets are often trimmed in matching black, or gold or silver.

BTW notice how Burgess' jacket there only has the button-loop soutache braid. That's commonly seen in modern times.

From, what, around 1890 to 1910 there was a fad of fully trimmed doublets, with braid everywhere. In The Scottish Tartans, published around 1920 but illustrating Edwardian dress, one sees innumerable fully-braided doublets:



In case one starts thinking about "artistic license" here's an Edwardian photo showing exactly the same thing:

[Kriegbert]

Not that I know of. I've seen Evening jackets in several colours trimmed in several colours: metallic gold or silver, contrasting colours, and matching colours.

In Victorian times one sometimes sees tan or beige jackets trimmed in dark brown.

Black jackets are often trimmed in matching black, or gold or silver.

BTW notice how Burgess' jacket there only has the button-loop soutache braid. That's commonly seen in modern times.

From, what, around 1890 to 1910 there was a fad of fully trimmed doublets, with braid everywhere. In The Scottish Tartans, published around 1920 but illustrating Edwardian dress, one sees innumerable fully-braided doublets:



In case one starts thinking about "artistic license" here's an Edwardian photo showing exactly the same thing:

these images are great! Thanks oc. I think the trimming is growing on me. On the parallel saxon convention, I have a few Edwardian items wuth braid; an oxford grey morning coat with silk edging or piping, still occassionally seen on morning coats (ege duke of rothesay has one); likewise a tweed hacking coat with brown piping too.

I wonder if something like a black prince charlie with silver trimming for example would be easily pull-offable without seeming like a uniform? When you look at it in the context of variety a hundred years back the near universal sea of black pc with black trimming (eg on buttonhole) seems boring!

[OC Richard]

I wonder if something like a black Prince Charlie with silver trimming for example would be easily pull-offable without seeming like a uniform?

Good question.

For sure nowadays when one sees a Highland jacket with gold or silver trim one thinks of a uniform, because for over a century the only trimmed doublets we generally see are military ones.

Here, the Pipes & Drums of 3SCOTS, note how the pipers all have white-piped doublets but the Pipe Major has a doublet fully trimmed in 1/2 inch gold "lace" (UK) "braid" (US).



To me a fully trimmed Prince Charlie coatee would look like a glaring anachronism, would look simply wrong.

Why? Because Prince Charlies were introduced at the very time that fully trimmed civilian jackets had gone out of style.

From their very first appearance, at the beginning of the 20th century, Prince Charlies were plain, and plain they have remained. Ditto the other new Highland jackets which came along in the post-WWI period like the Montrose and Kenmore.

Only the doublet went through the full-trim treatment. There was a second style, the Argyll, that bridged Victorian and Edwardian times but for whatever reason the full-trim fad passed it over.

Here are four civilian pipers around the turn of the century showing three distinct doublet styles.

The older gent on the left is wearing a fully trimmed civilian doublet, the man second from left is wearing a plain civilian doublet.

The two men on the right are wearing military-style doublets but I believe they're in the uniform of a civilian Pipe Band rather than actual military uniforms. (BTW the four sporrans show three different methods of cantle construction.)