Burns night dinner

[Troglodyte]

I wonder what you make of this...

I have just been shown pictures of our local Burns Night dinner which was held the usual venue (a Masons Lodge hall) and where it has been held for a century or more.

Photos going back over the generations show that it has always been a relaxed and fun event, with the usual piping-in, and address of the haggis, plenty of music and reeling later, and a good turn out of lads all a-kilted. And the ladies doing what they do best and looking beautiful.

I was unable to get to the event this year, but you can guess at my surprise to see the photos showing not an iota of Highland dress, with jeans, hoodies and the like being the preference instead. Dress code was obviously 'Down the pub' style.

Now get this. This was not some far-flung spot in foreign lands, or an inner-city club of a cosmopolitan flavour, but a glen in the Highlands of Scotland which is known for its unspoilt natural beauty and traditional living.

Any form of Highland dress is very rarely seen in Scotland now, but you would think folks might put in the effort for Burns Night.

Or wouldn't you..?

[Tomo]

By contrast, the Burns Suppers I have been to in Estonia, tend to be very dressy affairs - the ex-pats certainly push the boat out, but even the locals make an effort with many wearing the full rig.

[Jock Scot]

I wonder what you make of this...

I have just been shown pictures of our local Burns Night dinner which was held the usual venue (a Masons Lodge hall) and where it has been held for a century or more.

Photos going back over the generations show that it has always been a relaxed and fun event, with the usual piping-in, and address of the haggis, plenty of music and reeling later, and a good turn out of lads all a-kilted. And the ladies doing what they do best and looking beautiful.

I was unable to get to the event this year, but you can guess at my surprise to see the photos showing not an iota of Highland dress, with jeans, hoodies and the like being the preference instead. Dress code was obviously 'Down the pub' style.

Now get this. This was not some far-flung spot in foreign lands, or an inner-city club of a cosmopolitan flavour, but a glen in the Highlands of Scotland which is known for its unspoilt natural beauty and traditional living.

Any form of Highland dress is very rarely seen in Scotland now, but you would think folks might put in the effort for Burns Night.

Or wouldn't you..?

That doesn’t surprise me in the least.

Personally, I have never developed the taste for haggis or the writings of Mr. Burns . Who was , after all, a Lowland Scot.

[DCampbell16B]

I have wondered why there are no dinner nights for any of the Gaelic poets. It would seem more reasonable to be wearing a kilt and listening to the works of Robb Donn, Alasdair MacMhaister Alasdair, or (dare I say it) Mairi MacLeod.

[kilted scholar]

I have only just now watched an old BBC chat show (Parkinson, for those familiar) with the great actor, producer, raconteur and humorist the late Peter Ustinov. Ustinov was of mixed ancestry, primarily a quintessential Englishman with immediate Russian forbears. He remarked that he felt most Russian when he was away from Russia and most English when he was away from England. That sums up a lot in relation to many discussions on this site.

[Troglodyte]

I have only just now watched an old BBC chat show (Parkinson, for those familiar) with the great actor, producer, raconteur and humorist the late Peter Ustinov. Ustinov was of mixed ancestry, primarily a quintessential Englishman with immediate Russian forbears. He remarked that he felt most Russian when he was away from Russia and most English when he was away from England. That sums up a lot in relation to many discussions on this site.

This is common to all expats, and I speak with some considerable experience, having been born and brought up in the colonies - that is when they were still colonies and still took their guidance from London.

There seems to be some kind of inverse square law at play, where the further you find yourself from your cultural centre, the stronger you feel its influence. The closer you are, the more you resist and resent it.

Returning 'Home' for the first time (as an adult in my case) it is a cruel shock to see the Old Country is nothing like what was expected, with attitudes, values and fashions that are preserved and practiced overseas, being completely abandoned and unknown.

I have heard it referred to as 'Third Culture' as the poor individual is like a stateless person - culturally outside their own national origin, and that of their resident country too. And is the reason why so many who had worked for the colonial service never returned home later.

Personally, I am still reeling from the shock. I returned to the old country a couple of years ago, after 60-odd years away, and I feel more of a stranger than I did as a 'foreigner' when abroad.

I expect there are many in this group who feel something of the kind - they know of their Scottish (even Highland and specific clan) ancentry, and their disappintment at what they see in modern Scotland is often expressed. Think of the 'No Kilts in Scotland' discussions.

The outside world loves the tartan-and-shortbread image of the country, but the home-grown Scot sneers at it.

It is a pity, sure enough. But one of the best reasons for preserving the old ways, such as at a governor's reception, I feel.

[OC Richard]

What a wonderful post, that addresses a number of important points.

Returning 'Home' for the first time (as an adult in my case) it is a cruel shock to see the Old Country is nothing like what was expected, with attitudes, values and fashions that are preserved and practiced overseas, being completely abandoned and unknown.

I asked my father, who though born in the USA (his mother a first-generation American) was very proud of his English background and who knew English history backwards and forwards (common table conversation growing up was subjects like The War of the Roses, The Battle of Hastings, etc) why he didn't holiday in England and visit all the places he knew so much about.

He responded "the England I know is gone."

I have heard it referred to as 'Third Culture' as the poor individual is like a stateless person - culturally outside their own national origin, and that of their resident country too.

I'm one of those people (though regarding states as States) due to my family moving back and forth between West Virginia and California repeatedly when I was young. Though I've lived in California for most of my life it doesn't feel like "home". The conundrum is that when I visit family in West Virginia I feel like a visitor from another planet.

The outside world loves the tartan-and-shortbread image of Scotland, but the home-grown Scot sneers at it.

What I've observed here in the USA, with people having Scottish or Irish ancestry, is that the longer ago someone's ancestors arrived here more and more importance is placed on fewer and fewer things.

The first generation born here has their parents exemplifying a vast number of minute cultural differences as they go through their daily lives.

But as the generations pass the connexion becomes lost in a fog, each generation passing along fewer cultural distinctions to the next.

So with most "Irish-Americans" I know, whose families have been here since the 1840s, disproportionate importance is placed on St Patrick's Day, a few food items thought to be Irish, and old Clancy Brothers albums.

Many "Scottish-Americans" have only tartan, a dim connexion with some Clan, and some old bagpipe albums. (It could come to blows if you mention that their "Clan tartan" was invented as a hoax by two Englishmen.) Some add to their Clan and tartan Robert Burns and haggis.

[OC Richard]

By contrast, the Burns Suppers I have been to in Estonia, tend to be very dressy affairs - the ex-pats certainly push the boat out, but even the locals make an effort with many wearing the full rig.

Yes we in the USA generally have locals of Scottish descent overdressing rather than the reverse.

There's an "if you got it, wear it" thing. Seems that some gents are wearing every item of Scottish attire they own.

Whether it's a morning church service, afternoon wedding, or Burns Supper they're in Prince Charlies with dirks and plaids and at least three pins on their lapels.

[stickman]

This is common to all expats, and I speak with some considerable experience, having been born and brought up in the colonies - that is when they were still colonies and still took their guidance from London.

There seems to be some kind of inverse square law at play, where the further you find yourself from your cultural centre, the stronger you feel its influence. The closer you are, the more you resist and resent it.

Returning 'Home' for the first time (as an adult in my case) it is a cruel shock to see the Old Country is nothing like what was expected, with attitudes, values and fashions that are preserved and practiced overseas, being completely abandoned and unknown.

I have heard it referred to as 'Third Culture' as the poor individual is like a stateless person - culturally outside their own national origin, and that of their resident country too. And is the reason why so many who had worked for the colonial service never returned home later.

Personally, I am still reeling from the shock. I returned to the old country a couple of years ago, after 60-odd years away, and I feel more of a stranger than I did as a 'foreigner' when abroad.

I expect there are many in this group who feel something of the kind - they know of their Scottish (even Highland and specific clan) ancentry, and their disappintment at what they see in modern Scotland is often expressed. Think of the 'No Kilts in Scotland' discussions.

The outside world loves the tartan-and-shortbread image of the country, but the home-grown Scot sneers at it.

It is a pity, sure enough. But one of the best reasons for preserving the old ways, such as at a governor's reception, I feel.

I know exactly what you mean. It’s 68 years since I left the place of my birth,Carlisle, Cumbria. I have been back several times, all of my friends and most of my family are gone. I only have two cousins left. The last time I was there I didn’t feel like I was anything but a visitor in a strange place. It’s true the place I knew as a boy is gone, you can never go home ,it’s not there anymore.

My cousin is about 10 years younger than me, last time we talked on the phone he told me that I wouldn’t know the place. He said that there are so many immigrants nowadays and they are all on welfare. He is starting to feel out of place and he never left.

[stickman]

That doesn’t surprise me in the least.

Personally, I have never developed the taste for haggis or the writings of Mr. Burns . Who was , after all, a Lowland Scot.

Do I detect a tone of disdain for Lowland Scots? I believe that both Wallace and Robert the Bruce were both Lowland Scots. Neither were worthy of disdain.