Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[Ivor]

So much is this the case that they will refer to Victorian or Edwardian styles as being before 'traditional' Highland dress came about! What they really mean, but express, I feel, in misleading terms, is that the mid-20th century casual styles that came in after the First World War and were no more than the fashions of the era (as indeed were the Victorian and Edwardian versions previously) are promoted as the ideal.

You touch on a very significant point here and one that seems to raise its head here frequently, namely “traditional”. I have found it impossible to pin down just what this means beyond what one individual frequently refers to, seemingly what was good enough for his father is good enough for him and others who can swear on a stack of bibles and evidenced by extensive research and documentation what is the only true “traditional”. For me from a purely personal recollection “traditional” harks back to the likes of Kenneth McKellar, the Alexander Brothers or Andy Stewart maybe even Harry Lauder from an earlier time. While not seeking to emulate any of them they still seemed to provide an example of highland dress at the time.
“Plus ca change plus c'est la même chose “ maybe sums up “traditional” in that despite all the variations that appear from time to time it is essentially the same outfit. Perhaps it is time to forget examining the minutiae and just get on with wearing it.

[Troglodyte]

You touch on a very significant point here and one that seems to raise its head here frequently, namely “traditional”. I have found it impossible to pin down just what this means beyond what one individual frequently refers to, seemingly what was good enough for his father is good enough for him and others who can swear on a stack of bibles and evidenced by extensive research and documentation what is the only true “traditional”. For me from a purely personal recollection “traditional” harks back to the likes of Kenneth McKellar, the Alexander Brothers or Andy Stewart maybe even Harry Lauder from an earlier time. While not seeking to emulate any of them they still seemed to provide an example of highland dress at the time.
“Plus ca change plus c'est la même chose “ maybe sums up “traditional” in that despite all the variations that appear from time to time it is essentially the same outfit. Perhaps it is time to forget examining the minutiae and just get on with wearing it.

Exactly.

Well said.

[ShaunMaxwell]

You touch on a very significant point here and one that seems to raise its head here frequently, namely “traditional”. I have found it impossible to pin down just what this means beyond what one individual frequently refers to, seemingly what was good enough for his father is good enough for him and others who can swear on a stack of bibles and evidenced by extensive research and documentation what is the only true “traditional”. For me from a purely personal recollection “traditional” harks back to the likes of Kenneth McKellar, the Alexander Brothers or Andy Stewart maybe even Harry Lauder from an earlier time. While not seeking to emulate any of them they still seemed to provide an example of highland dress at the time.
“Plus ca change plus c'est la même chose “ maybe sums up “traditional” in that despite all the variations that appear from time to time it is essentially the same outfit. Perhaps it is time to forget examining the minutiae and just get on with wearing it.

For this forum, some effort was put into describing what was meant by “traditional”. You may or may not agree, but you can see the thread here:

https://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/...xamples-85511/

Cheers,

SM

[Tobus]

I, too, detect a distinct anti-hire sentiment in the USA, when it comes to rental clothing - especially Highland dress - which is not felt here in the UK.

We only have to look at the likes of Moss Bross supplying morning-coats and top hats for regular events such as Ascot, to see that at even high levels of 'Society' hiring an outfit is quite the done thing.

In my observation, having seen this discussed many times over the last 15 years that I've been here, the issue with hire companies is that they put people in generic-looking costumes. When talking about so-called "Saxon" styles of hire clothing as you mentioned, that is to be expected. It is, in many regards, the point of renting a tuxedo or morning coat and tophat. Higher levels of dress and formal wear in "Saxon" styles are intended for men to be dressed the same and look generic. This is not so with Highland wear, but the hire companies apply that logic to Highland styles anyway. And they do a disservice to their customers (and the culture in general).

I can only speak for my own opinion here, but I've no issue with the concept of hiring an outfit. My issue is with the fact that hire companies make their customers look cartoonishly generic and poorly-outfitted (all the while telling them it's "correct"). White hose with ghillie brogues, a belt buckle peeking out from under a waistcoat, and a silly rouche tie - we've all seen this look pushed by hire companies. And though they may have certain elements of their outfits that come from established tradition, the overall look has become somewhat of a meme.

That is one of the reasons that I (speaking only for myself here) tend to shy away from certain accessories or combinations that veer too close to the hire look. In my opinion, the ideal should be that even if one hires their outfit, it should not be obvious that they did so. And with the current styles from the hire companies, it is painfully obvious. Unfortunately, ghillie brogues have been caught up in that trap.

[Ivor]

I, too, detect a distinct anti-hire sentiment in the USA, when it comes to rental clothing - especially Highland dress - which is not felt here in the UK.

There seems to be quite a wide-spread fear in North America of doing it wrong when it comes to Highland dress, which has given rise to codifying styles and the various elements in a way that simply does not exist at home in Scotland. There are no doubt good reasons for this, but it means that a fair amount of what is thought right and proper in Scotland, and so the wider UK also, is shunned through fear of what others.

Two posts that fully confirm your earlier statements and it is quite a revelation reading that thread setting out chapter and verse how, in no uncertain terms, highland dress must traditionally be worn. It even includes photos of all the usual suspects should you be in any doubt of how you must appear.

There is, indeed, a great deal of truth in what you say about a mid-Atlantic culture divide.

[Troglodyte]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things, and 'doing things right' than kilt wearers in Scotland.

Yes, that certainly seems to be the way, and the question of 'Is it too matchy-matchy..? is often asked when showing an outfit.

Wanting to 'do things right' is, of course, commendable and should be encouraged, but it suggests that there is a big risk of doing things wrong also.

It has always been my impression that here in Scotland there is almost no awareness of doing it either way, right or wrong, but just simply doing it. Established convention and still-practised etiquette are the natural guides if ever in doubt for any kind of social situation, but the idea that wearing the kilt can be done 'wrong' in any informal setting (that is, when uniform or specified dress is required) would baffle most Scots.

[Troglodyte]

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These will be familiar to many on this forum, and this selection of pictures proves nothing - except, perhaps, that the idea of ghillie-brogues being a modern kilt-hire industry invention is unfounded.

If being subjective, it is easy to find period pictures that 'prove' a point, but all they really show is the illustrated individuals' personal preference on the day.

But we can see from these pictures that ghillies are at least as 'original' to Highland dress as the interpretation of 'traditional' as it is now applied to it. They have certainly been worn with the kilt for at least as long as a 'traditional' tweed jacket and waistcoat.

Interestingly, the gillies being worn are shown in both smart formal settings (weddings) and informal casual (Highland games) and so should help the undecided shed their doubts.

[OC Richard]

I, too, detect a distinct anti-hire sentiment in the USA, when it comes to rental clothing - especially Highland dress - which is not felt here in the UK.

However, a number of Scots on these pages have regularly criticised the Kilt Hire look and have sometimes pointed to it as having had a degrading effect on Highland Dress.

Personally, the first Kilt Hire Shop I ever saw was during my first visit to Scotland in 1986.

The first thing I saw as I walked in was a huge 6-foot-high photograph of a man dressed thusly:

White Prince Charlie and waistcoat
White shirt
White ruch tie
White kilt (no pattern)
White fur sporran with white tassels
White hose
White Ghillies
and...wait for it...BLACK flashes!! Oh the shame of coming so close to perfection only to mess up the flashes.

I have been following the trends in the Scottish Kilt Hire shops for years.

For years it was the black Prince Charlie + "semi-dress" sporran + white hose + Ghillies look, and little else.

There was a rage for all-black outfits, all-white outfits, and all-grey outfits.

Purple tartans were the rage for a while. Grey tartans were the rage for a while.

Recently they have been getting away from the black PC and having more traditional-looking outfits.

Tweed has been on the rise for some years now, at first usually either dark grey or mid grey, but now blue and even brown is seen.

Just to see what we're talking about, here's a Hire Shop in 2024.

[OC Richard]

Back to my Allen Brothers theory, it's interesting that they drew and painted themselves wearing what appear to be moccasin-type Ghillie things, the same sorts of things they show in their fantasy illustrations in Costumes of the Clans.

These appear to have been picked up by McIan, who shows them in a number of his fanciful illustrations of "ancient" Highlanders.

However in these photographs it can be seen that both John and Charles wore Ghillies with soles and heels.

[OC Richard]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things...

Yes which is the very antitheses of how Highland Dress can be seen to have been worn, and is still worn, by most Scots.

The things that I have noticed that Americans sometimes do are

-match colours of both the fabrics, and leathers. (Though there's plenty of matching also going on in the Scottish Kilt Hire shops.)

-have their kilts made with low-cut waists, or wear their kilts lower than what is traditional.

-wear numerous accessories.

-blend elements of historical Highland Dress with the existing modern traditional Highland Dress.