The Black Watch military issue kilt from mid 20th century - ident help required!

[Noscere]

Good afternoon!

I am writing this message to seek advice on a Black Watch kilt that an elderly relative wishes ti sell. I suggested Vinted (unless ebay is better for miliaria-collectible-etc)

THE-BLACK-WATCH-Lbl-info-Uprght—20240823_205026.jpg

This is the label on the kilt, and this me wearing it (as a true scot would). My quwstiona are thusly- great word! Thusly.... surely I can Identify the soldier this was issued to? We believe it pre-dates 1953 at the least, as the label on those kilts is much more readable, even professional.

Thanks revieved for any help responded with, and I shall now introduce myself in the relevant section!

20240818_223640.jpg

[figheadair]

Good afternoon!

I am writing this message to seek advice on a Black Watch kilt that an elderly relative wishes ti sell. I suggested Vinted (unless ebay is better for miliaria-collectible-etc)

THE-BLACK-WATCH-Lbl-info-Uprght—20240823_205026.jpg

This is the label on the kilt, and this me wearing it (as a true scot would). My quwstiona are thusly- great word! Thusly.... surely I can Identify the soldier this was issued to? We believe it pre-dates 1953 at the least, as the label on those kilts is much more readable, even professional.

Thanks revieved for any help responded with, and I shall now introduce myself in the relevant section!

20240818_223640.jpg

Soldiers often wrote their Service Number on kit which allows then to be identified. That is not the case here and the number is simply the Ordnance / NATO Stock Number.

[Noscere]

If it helps, I think I got the text from the label - gonna need this if I'm to find more about this Kilt. Some of the characters where hard to read, so I doubled those lines and prefixed with 1* or 2* etc:

Kilts No 1
BLACK WATCH OR.

1*

Cat No. 8405.99.975.0387

(confusion with 1/2 letters caused family debate)
2*

Cat Wo. 8405.9P.975.0387

————————————

Size 4

CROWTHORRE CLOTHING Co. Ltd

CROWYHORHE CLOTHING Co. Ltd

A;Y2/CLO/37430/CB(CT)3B

Thanks for Amy help or pointers!

[figheadair]

Like I said, this are the cataloguing references and are not used to identify an individual kilt. Thus, it is impossible to know to whom it was issued.

[OC Richard]

For reference, here's a label from a "1953 pattern" Black Watch kilt with the NATO number.



Notice your NATO number ends in 7, this one ends in 9, which (if the numbers are in sequence) yours could be a bit older.

I'm assuming the "1953 pattern" refers to when this pattern kilt was given a NATO number, because the design of the kilt itself seems identical to the ones made throughout the 20th century.

An Argylls kilt "1957 pattern".



Here's an Argylls kilt with a rather different NATO number.

Now the sizes are metric.

[Troglodyte]

Good afternoon!

I am writing this message to seek advice on a Black Watch kilt that an elderly relative wishes ti sell. I suggested Vinted (unless ebay is better for miliaria-collectible-etc)

THE-BLACK-WATCH-Lbl-info-Uprght—20240823_205026.jpg

This is the label on the kilt, and this me wearing it (as a true scot would). My quwstiona are thusly- great word! Thusly.... surely I can Identify the soldier this was issued to? We believe it pre-dates 1953 at the least, as the label on those kilts is much more readable, even professional.

Thanks revieved for any help responded with, and I shall now introduce myself in the relevant section!

20240818_223640.jpg

The fact that there is no specific NATO stock number will be a clue to the date of the kilt, and the numbers shown will be the War Deptartment or Ministry of Defence contract order numbers used with the supplier.

You may be able to get a close date of manufacture by researching when the MoD used that particular supplier, and in this case the Black Watch themselves may have records at their regimental museum at Perth - but be prepared for disappointment with that.

Size 4 is, by today's standards, a small kilt, and the clothing sizing charts give this to be for a man 5'5"-5'6" height; 30"-31" waist; 35"-36" breech or seat.

There may be kilties of this diminutive size (a slim youth) that this kilt would be ideal for, and selling on eBay's militaria section might get best results as it is a mid-century army kilt with its original label. Expect it to sell for less that £100 as it has limited appeal.

[Noscere]

So so so so folks!!!! I've made a terrible oversight..... THE SOLDIERS NAME IS ON THE KILT!!! - Screenshot_20240912_162533_Chrome.jpg

The information you've already given me has been invaluable. I had seen a 1953 label so presumed this Kilt to be older than that, as the typeface looks more...modern, and more.... professional.

I'm a software engineer/Web developer by trade, so knowing a lot about typeface and the like (eh, font) has bene helpful for me — at least it was in my dating of labels, since the letters used in the 1953 one where not around pre-1950 (maybe even earlier).

Due to the info you've given me, I now know I cannot identify the kilts owner/platoon/battalion, regiment (well obvs, apart from knowing the pattern is BW, so regiment is known, aside��).

Here's some pictures, I really hope they help and you're not going to have difficulty reading the letters....

20240912_153042.jpg

I'll zoom in a bit...

20240912_153053.jpg

I think I might have to play with some amartpgone apature/"teal photography" settgins:

20240912_153101.jpg

Oh dear, shadow is looking this way:

20240912_153112.jpg


I've put up all the images I took, hope it doesn't appear spammy (apologies if it does) but I thoguht it might help in identifying letters/numbers, etc.

[Troglodyte]

So so so so folks!!!! I've made a terrible oversight..... THE SOLDIERS NAME IS ON THE KILT!!! - Screenshot_20240912_162533_Chrome.jpg

The information you've already given me has been invaluable. I had seen a 1953 label so presumed this Kilt to be older than that, as the typeface looks more...modern, and more.... professional.

I'm a software engineer/Web developer by trade, so knowing a lot about typeface and the like (eh, font) has bene helpful for me — at least it was in my dating of labels, since the letters used in the 1953 one where not around pre-1950 (maybe even earlier).

Due to the info you've given me, I now know I cannot identify the kilts owner/platoon/battalion, regiment (well obvs, apart from knowing the pattern is BW, so regiment is known, aside��).

Here's some pictures, I really hope they help and you're not going to have difficulty reading the letters....

20240912_153042.jpg

I'll zoom in a bit...

20240912_153053.jpg

I think I might have to play with some amartpgone apature/"teal photography" settgins:

20240912_153101.jpg

Oh dear, shadow is looking this way:

20240912_153112.jpg


I've put up all the images I took, hope it doesn't appear spammy (apologies if it does) but I thoguht it might help in identifying letters/numbers, etc.

It looks like the individual himself wrote his name and number in the kilt, and if you check the Black Watch records, you should find his service details.

More than one name often appears written inside military kilts, as they get issued and used, returned to stores and then re-issued on a regular basis.

The date is not always the date of issue, but the date of the pattern used for the making of the garment, so you will often see '1949 Pattern' on something that got made and issued several years later. There were several changes to Highland military dress in the early 1950s (following the late Queen's accession) but other than the obvious (such as sporran style) the differences need a very keen eye to spot.

The value of the kilt you have is probably much less that the cost of the material, if you were to buy it by the yard, so you could have a kiltmaker resize it for you to wear comfortably. Army kilts are thick and tough, and are well-worth repurposing.

[KiltedRN]

Has it occurred to anyone that it could possibly even be Canadian? The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada had kilts made in the UK. I am however not able to track down an example of kilt lable.

[Noscere]

Has it occurred to anyone that it could possibly even be Canadian? The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada had kilts made in the UK. I am however not able to track down an example of kilt lable.

Hi KiltedRN, thanks for that comment - I hadn't thought of going down those links. The gentleman who owns the kilt (I call him grandad but he's technically not - families are complicated these days! - he thought a while and concluded that he doesn't think that's a likely possibility but he'll ask questions)

However I got some interesting analysis from Google gemini AI handwriting analyser!!!! (See next lost as I'll start a new reply and keep your reply pure)