18th century scottish regiments

[Troglodyte]

I can't find the original but here is the aquatint showing Grenadiers of the 42nd or Royal and 92nd or Gordon Highlanders by J C Stadler after Charles Hamilton Smith, 1812.

Attachment 43979

The tartan appears to be Wilsons of Bannockburn's 42nd Pattern Officers, Sergeants and Privates which was included in their 1819 Key Pattern Book as Coarse Kilt with Red. Here's me weaving it.

Attachment 43980

The Coarse Kilt with Red tartan appears to have been adopted by the 42nd in the 1780s and seems to have been what Logan, whose reference was based on David Stewart of Garth's history of the 42nd, seems to have been the basis for the 42nd red line claim. I am not aware of any contemporary evidence to support Lord John Murray introducing the red stripe.

It's great to see proper hands-on weaving in action!

Is what you are weaving a replica of the added-red version that Garth mentions? Your photo makes it appear different from the woven examples of Black Watch Red Hackle to be found online, and the Register's digital image of it. I assume the red overstripes are placed differently.

I had imagined the original BW with the red overstripe running in place of the narrow black line on the green, or between the two central black lines on the blue.

Do you know of an original sample still in existance?

[figheadair]

It's great to see proper hands-on weaving in action!

Is what you are weaving a replica of the added-red version that Garth mentions? Your photo makes it appear different from the woven examples of Black Watch Red Hackle to be found online, and the Register's digital image of it. I assume the red overstripes are placed differently.

I had imagined the original BW with the red overstripe running in place of the narrow black line on the green, or between the two central black lines on the blue.

Do you know of an original sample still in existance?

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

It was a simplified sett with alternating blue/green grounds.



Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

[Troglodyte]

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

It was a simplified sett with alternating blue/green grounds.



Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

It makes a simple but handsome tartan.

I have long thought that the Black watch with a single red overstripe (in place of the black) on the green only would make a useful alternative, allowing for pleating to the stripe in regimental style.

The portrait of the Duke of Athole and family reminds me of the Landseer Death of the Stag in Glen Tilt painted a few years leter. The duke himself is shown in lowland fashions of the era, but the kneeling ghillies appear to be kilted in something very similar to your tartan.

[OC Richard]

Trying to find information on Scottish regiments around the time of the French and Indian war, and the American Revolution.

Tartans they would have worn?

Happily there are plenty of people who have already done a vast amount of research on 18th century Highland regiments and their uniforms, equipment, and weaponry. They're the reenactors, such as this group, dedicated to Scottish regiments active in North America

https://muskets-of-the-crown.org/abo...-of-the-crown/

It's surprising just how many Highland regiments there were in the 18th century. Barnes gives a list of "Highland regiments raised and disbanded between 1745 and 1800."

Here's the ones that he shows having served in North America, with their years of existence:

77th Montgomery's Hrs. 1757-1763

78th Fraser's Hrs. 1757-1763

71st Fraser's Hrs. 1775-1783

74th Argyll Hrs. 1778-1783

76th MacDonald's Hrs. 1777-1784

84th Royal Highland Emigrant Regt. 1775-1784

He doesn't give tartans of those.

He does give tartans of Highland regiments existing in 1800:

42nd or Royal Highland Regt. 42nd

71st Hrs. MacKenzie

72nd Hrs. MacKenzie

73rd Hrs. 42nd

74th Hrs. 42nd

75th Hrs. Gordon

78th Hrs. MacKenzie

79th Hrs. Cameron of Erracht

91st Hrs. 42nd

92nd Hrs. Gordon

93rd Hrs. 42nd

[OC Richard]

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

I've often heard it said that the red line was for the Grenadier Company of the 42nd, but is there any evidence to support that?

It is true that Grenadier Companies had upgraded status and kit, such as shells on their jackets, extra yards in their kilts, and pipers.

The 1775 warrant to raise Fraser's Highlanders included permission for 2 pipers per Grenadier Company. This was then applied to all Highland regiments raised for the Napoleonic Wars. (The other companies were only authorised one drummer, though a piper was often carried on the roster as a drummer.) (It wasn't until 1854 that each regiment was authorised to maintain a pipe band.)

Just speculation, but I can imagine the Black Watch, after seeing so many other regiments adopt their tartan, wanting to make theirs unique by adding a red stripe to commemorate their unique red hackle.

[figheadair]

Happily there are plenty of people who have already done a vast amount of research on 18th century Highland regiments and their uniforms, equipment, and weaponry. They're the reenactors, such as this group, dedicated to Scottish regiments active in North America

https://muskets-of-the-crown.org/abo...-of-the-crown/

It's surprising just how many Highland regiments there were in the 18th century. Barnes gives a list of "Highland regiments raised and disbanded between 1745 and 1800."

Here's the ones that he shows having served in North America, with their years of existence:

77th Montgomery's Hrs. 1757-1763

78th Fraser's Hrs. 1757-1763

71st Fraser's Hrs. 1775-1783

74th Argyll Hrs. 1778-1783

76th MacDonald's Hrs. 1777-1784

84th Royal Highland Emigrant Regt. 1775-1784

He doesn't give tartans of those.

He does give tartans of Highland regiments existing in 1800:

42nd or Royal Highland Regt. 42nd

71st Hrs. MacKenzie

72nd Hrs. MacKenzie

73rd Hrs. 42nd

74th Hrs. 42nd

75th Hrs. Gordon

78th Hrs. MacKenzie

79th Hrs. Cameron of Erracht

91st Hrs. 42nd

92nd Hrs. Gordon

93rd Hrs. 42nd

77th Montgomery's Hrs. 1757-1763 - 42nd sett

78th Fraser's Hrs. 1757-1763 - 42nd sett

71st Fraser's Hrs. 1775-1783 - 42nd sett

74th Argyll Hrs. 1778-1783 - 42nd sett

76th MacDonald's Hrs. 1777-1784 - probably 42nd sett

84th Royal Highland Emigrant Regt. 1775-1784 - 42nd sett

74th Hrs. 42nd later worn Lamont

[figheadair]

I've often heard it said that the red line was for the Grenadier Company of the 42nd, but is there any evidence to support that?

It is true that Grenadier Companies had upgraded status and kit, such as shells on their jackets, extra yards in their kilts, and pipers.

The 1775 warrant to raise Fraser's Highlanders included permission for 2 pipers per Grenadier Company. This was then applied to all Highland regiments raised for the Napoleonic Wars. (The other companies were only authorised one drummer, though a piper was often carried on the roster as a drummer.) (It wasn't until 1854 that each regiment was authorised to maintain a pipe band.)

Just speculation, but I can imagine the Black Watch, after seeing so many other regiments adopt their tartan, wanting to make theirs unique by adding a red stripe to commemorate their unique red hackle.

As far as I know, there is no reliable evidence that the 42nd Grenadiers wore a red line in their tartan.

Wilsons' records suggest that the Coarse Kilt with Red sett (source of the red line myth?) was worn by all ranks for fatigue dress (feileadh beag) from around 1780.