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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleater View Post

    Of course as time passes more and more people think that 'Outlander' costumes are the real thing.
    It's tragic how many people think that the Outlander costumes are authentic.

    About the brown and grey look, there's a thing with Hollywood historical films to make everything dull and drab, be it the Middle Ages or Renaissance or the 18th century, when actual paintings from those periods show bright colours. (They show ancient Rome with entirely white buildings too, but let's not go there.)

    As we know the brown & grey weathered tartans didn't appear until 1949. I think a lot of the blame for using those tartans in historical films goes to Rob Roy. Here are the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes compared to actual 18th century Highland clothing.

    (Both the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes show the Hollywood costumers confusing the breacan-an-feileadh with long plaids wrapped around the body, worn by men in trews in 18th century portraits.)

    Last edited by OC Richard; 25th March 25 at 10:52 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  3. #12
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    All of the jacket colours in the Semple illustrations look good. I tend to agree that the lighter colours look good and work better. I also like Lovat Green. The modern monochromatic colours used both for the kilt, jacket and hose take away the contrast between the kilt and accessories, which is what gives it its style.

    The exception, in my view, is the navy blue which works well in a more dignified environment in place of the black Argyll with silver buttons. A garment of which I am not a fan. Especially as a pipe band uniform.
    Janner52

    Exemplo Ducemus

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    It's tragic how many people think that the Outlander costumes are authentic.

    About the brown and grey look, there's a thing with Hollywood historical films to make everything dull and drab, be it the Middle Ages or Renaissance or the 18th century, when actual paintings from those periods show bright colours. (They show ancient Rome with entirely white buildings too, but let's not go there.)

    As we know the brown & grey weathered tartans didn't appear until 1949. I think a lot of the blame for using those tartans in historical films goes to Rob Roy. Here are the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes compared to actual 18th century Highland clothing.

    (Both the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes show the Hollywood costumers confusing the breacan-an-feileadh with long plaids wrapped around the body, worn by men in trews in 18th century portraits.)

    Most of the illustrations of 18th century Highland dress tend to depict soldiers or the at the higher end of the social strata. There are very few images of the lower orders. Additionally a lot of the drawings are slightly caricaturist and unrealistic. So therefore likely inaccurate.
    Some may also have been drawn from memory.

    Clearly not the case in the examples above.
    Last edited by Janner52; 25th March 25 at 04:04 PM.
    Janner52

    Exemplo Ducemus

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janner52 View Post
    Most of the illustrations of 18th century Highland dress tend to depict soldiers or the at the higher end of the social strata. There are very few images of the lower orders. Additionally a lot of the drawings are slightly caricaturist and unrealistic. So therefore likely inaccurate.
    Some may also have been drawn from memory.
    Clearly not the case in the examples above.
    Several accurate observations there.

    As historians we have to work with what we have- once we reach the boundaries of the extant evidence we have to admit "we just don't know". (We can leave speculation to the writers of fiction.)

    For Highland Dress we have oil portraits painted from life going back to the late 17th century. These were incredibly expensive, around $100,000 in today's money, and have the disadvantage of only showing the wealthy, but the advantage of being made under the watchful eye of the subject (who was also the person footing the bill, and thus almost certainly nitpicky). The artist would have been held to the highest level of accuracy at least in terms of clothing and accessories.

    We have more than enough 18th century oil portraits done from life to know exactly how people dressed.

    There's a group portrait of several ordinary Highland men painted from life, which shows that then, as now, the rich and the ordinary dressed more or less the same. (I can see a historian 300 years from now seeing photos of our current celebrities in baseball hats, t-shirts, and cargo shorts, and imagining that this was only the dress of the wealthy.)

    Beyond those 18th century portraits there isn't much that could be taken as being reliable. We have to set aside illustrations done from the artist's imagination, political cartoons, etc.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    I think a lot of the blame for using those tartans in historical films goes to Rob Roy. Here are the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes compared to actual 18th century Highland clothing.

    (Both the Rob Roy and Outlander costumes show the Hollywood costumers confusing the breacan-an-feileadh with long plaids wrapped around the body, worn by men in trews in 18th century portraits.)
    I was the tartan advisor for Rob Roy and proposed a number of historically suitable tartans, including the so-called MacGregor of Glengyle. Whilst the costume team were enthused and very keen to use on or other, they were overruled by the director. As a perfect example of a lack of appreciation of historical tartans he was reported to have said of the Glengyle sett 'I'm not having Liam Neilson wearing pink'!

    My minor success was to have a plaid (which I dyed and wove) worn by the Duke of Argyll in some scenes. As an aside, unknown to me, the costume was sold off at the end filming. Had I known, I'd have bought the plaid back. I wonder what happened to it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Duke of Argyll in Rob Roy.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	126.1 KB 
ID:	44273

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  9. #16
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    Grayscale and "symbolic" tartans

    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    Most of the Highland Dress outfitters I see here in northern Scotland have their shop-windows display the latest trends - no doubt to attract the young gent getting kitted out for his wedding and the like. The current fashion is for all grey - which makes the whole outfit look as if it has been given a dunking in black dye - not enough to make eveything totally black, but close enough.
    When my sister, son, and I visited Scotland summer of 2023, I was surprised as well to see the prominence of those "grayscale" tartans in prestigious Edinburgh shop windows (including Nicolson and Kinloch Anderson). But, I thought some of them were rather attractive, and when I learned of the "Lunar" tartan (and Barb Tewksbury's modification of it, as well as the Scottish Registry of Tartans' apparent posture that anyone could register virtually anything, as long as they paid the fee), the other current and enduring trend (to encourage or at least tolerate symbolism to color choices in tartan design) drew me to that specific tartan, because the symbolism of the Lunar2 modification expressed some of what was great in the "American Experiment," i.e., "one small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind."

    But, if one is a "serial kilter," and grayscale is the only arrow in one's quiver, that's just sad, and, of course "just my opinion," too.

    One of the recipients of a "Lunar 2" kilt from Barb Tewksbury is an astronaut who played Amazing Grace on the pipes on the International Space Station (available on YouTube). I'm told he HAS a kilt in "Lunar2." I have no idea whether the reason he was not kilted while piping 200 miles up has to do with with weight limitations for one's personal baggage on that VERY pricey airline, or perhaps the embarrassment that might derive from wearing it in zero gravity conditions.

    And, color symbolism in tartan design is not unknown even in Scotland. Lochcarron weaves and Gordon Nicolson sells fabric in a registered and restricted "Nursing" tartan, where the colors match the colors in the nursing uniforms of those who toil for the Scottish National Health Service. I think that tartan is VERY attractive, and I'm trying to obtain a kilt made in it for my spouse, who is at LEAST as proud of her own service as a registered nurse as she is about her choice of spouse.

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    I was the tartan advisor for Rob Roy and proposed a number of historically suitable tartans, including the so-called MacGregor of Glengyle. Whilst the costume team were enthused and very keen to use on or other, they were overruled by the director. As a perfect example of a lack of appreciation of historical tartans he was reported to have said of the Glengyle sett 'I'm not having Liam Neilson wearing pink'!

    My minor success was to have a plaid (which I dyed and wove) worn by the Duke of Argyll in some scenes. As an aside, unknown to me, the costume was sold off at the end filming. Had I known, I'd have bought the plaid back. I wonder what happened to it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Duke of Argyll in Rob Roy.jpg 
Views:	19 
Size:	126.1 KB 
ID:	44273
    That's beautiful Peter. I'm glad you were able to get that included in the film.

    I've been around Hollywood enough to have seen that process several times with my own eyes:

    1) hire an expert to be an "advisor" on the film.

    2) ignore most or all of what they advise you to do.

    The most puzzling thing to me about the Rob Roy costumes is that they created a completely ahistorical mashup of the breacan-an-feileadh and the long plaid.

    Didn't they notice that all the old portraits of men in kilts don't have a length of tartan wrapped diagonally across the torso?

    I'm assuming the costumer got that idea from old portraits of men in trews.

    Or, Victorian (and later) images of men wearing modern (detached) kilts with the long plaid.

    About Hollywood people not noticing what might be thought obvious, after Braveheart came out every composer in Hollywood wanted the sound of the uilleann pipes on their projects, and for the duration of that fad I was very busy.

    Whenever they called me I gave my little speech about exactly what the uilleann pipes could, and couldn't, do. Rarely did any of my information sink in.

    One of those times happened when, despite my clear instructions, I arrived to find that the composer had written my part in the wrong key.

    I spied the Braveheart soundtrack CD on his desk.

    "I see you have Braveheart. Did you listen to it?"

    "Yes I listened to it over and over to get a feel about what the uilleann bagpipes do."

    "Did you notice that every single thing that the pipes play is in one or two sharps?"

    No, he hadn't. One would think a professional composer would have an awareness of keys, no?
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post

    Didn't they notice that all the old portraits of men in kilts don't have a length of tartan wrapped diagonally across the torso?

    I'm assuming the costumer got that idea from old portraits of men in trews.
    This bothers me as much as the dull gray/brown tartans.
    "There is no merit in being wet and/or cold and sartorial elegance take second place to common sense." Jock Scot

  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    One would think a professional composer would have an awareness of keys, no?
    Off topic:
    This reminds me of other issues pipers face, like volume.

    Potential client (PC): "Can't you just blow softer?"
    Bagpiper (BP): "No, this is a reeded instrument and the reeds require a certain amount of air pressure to make sound. That produces a louder volume."
    PC: "But <insert instance of recorded pipes played over a movie scene or on television> was quiet!"
    BP: "Yes, and that was a recording, not live. If you want a similar effect, use a recording or have me play at a distance."
    PC: "But, but, I want a live piper right there!"
    BP, realizing PC wants the spectacle more than the music: "Let me direct you to <the next piper that does gigs in the area>. Maybe they can help you."


    On topic:
    Peter, I always thought the Duke of Argyll looked more authentic in his attire than did the rest of the tartan-wearing cast, even before I started learning about tartans and my own Scottish heritage*. Well done, and thank you. What most of the kilt-wearing cast wore appeared to be an awkward mishmash that they weren't sure what to do with and were not entirely comfortable wearing, instead of clothing they grew up wearing and had seen their elders wearing before them.

    *(My own Scottish-ness is still somewhat in doubt, even though my surname is Scott. We haven't been able to follow the line back to the British Isles pre-1740 yet.)
    John

  14. #20
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    Cool Playing the pipes in your college dorm?

    Quote Originally Posted by EagleJCS View Post
    Off topic:
    This reminds me of other issues pipers face, like volume.

    Potential client (PC): "Can't you just blow softer?"
    I could have done that when I (sort of) learned to play the pipes in my college's band, but with the obvious unimpressive expected outcome. I DID manage to learn 3 marches on the practice chanter, but I couldn't keep the bag inflated unless I plugged the drones with wine corks!

    Fortunately, we had a REALLY talented Pipe Major. He was also an intercollegiate swimmer, and he happily regaled us about a drunken swimmer's party he attended WITH his pipes at a little university 40 miles south of us (athletic mascot: "Handsome Dan.)" One of ITS swimmers was a very famous Olympic Medalist (Don Schollander), and I was happy to learn that HE couldn't keep the bag inflated, either (of course, in Schollander's case, the problem likely was situational, related to the "nutrients" available at the party.

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