wool thread dimensions, sourcing

[NHhighlander]

I am getting confuseder and confuseder, when it comes to understanding what kind of thread I should use for my DIY tartan project, which would be the step previous to sourcing it. As in, what should I look for?

OK, so, tartan fabric (is saying "fabric" after "tartan" redundant?) runs anywhere 25 to 40 ends per inch, so far so good. 16oz per sq yard is considered "heavy," 10oz very light fabric or so seems to be the consensus.

I come from the Highlands. I mean, Highlands. 3,800 meters over sea level. We do heavyweight as a norm, cause we know what cold up there is like, and now in the still cool evenings of New England, I have on my knees this handmade, homespun wool throw that, after some maths, clocks at 38 oz / sq. yard.

To think that something half this would be "heavy", and we would have to go to 1/3, 1/4 for "light," somehow my brain gets confused, I just am not used at wool thread that thin. It must exist, as everybody talks about it, but, it's just that I don't have the experience. We do light fabric, but it's more like very open weave, the thread itself is rather thick, compared to what is needed for 30-ends/inch, like .5 mm?

And I have no idea on how to go about buying it in this hemisphere. (yes, I have found some distributors, but I don't know what to look for)

Having written this, I feel refreshed, I guess I can do a search for "wool thread thickness," and learn terminology... But help is still appreciated.

I intend to do homespun, with wool spinned in the Old Country if I manage it. Will have to show my people some sample of what I need... Oh, it will be a ride, might not work. But, one problem at a time. Not unlikely I might need to source it in the US. Any recommendations?

Thank you!

[Pleater]

@NHhighlander It would be a huge task to hand spin enough yarn for a kilt - working to produce such fine stuff is best left to mechanical production lines.
I spin yarns for myself starting from shorn fleeces, but I make yarn many times thicker than what would be required for tartan cloth for a kilt, as I am knitting it. Even so the yarn for one garment can cake months to produce.

I think that most yarn is now defined by the number of metres per gram, so once the basic size is confirmed you can make fair comparisons when looking for the colours you need.

Anne the Pleater

[Steve Ashton]

There are a wide and confusing range of ways that yarn is categorized and measured.
In general, if you see yarn listed with two numbers like a fraction - ie 16/2 it will usually be a weaving yarn.
There will normally be some letters before the numbers. ie Nm or Ne.

The first number usually means how heavy a single ply of the yarn is. (but these numbers can be reversed under some systems.)

Nm 16/2 means that there would be 16, 1000meter lengths in one Kilogram. This is the Metric Cotton Count. This may or may not be used for wool.
Ne 16/2 would mean that there are 16 lengths of 840 yards of yarn in one pound. This is the English Cottom Count, which also may or may not be used for wool.

The second number would be how many plys are in the yarn.

This is a 3 ply knitting yarn which is measured by at least 8 different and totally unrelated systems.




A very common Tartan weaving Yarn is 20/2 wool.
Here is just one source - https://woolery.com/lamana-milano-yarn.html


If you see the yarn listed as no.2, WPI, with a word like 'lace', or meters/100 grams you are usually dealing with a knitting yarn.

Each country such as the UK, the EU, AU, and Japan all use different systems.
The British Ply System is totally different from the Craft Yarn Council numbering system and has nothing to do with how many individual plys are in the yarn.

This is a kilt made from hand woven fabric, in the Wildcat Tartan, woven by one of our members. He used 20/2 wool yarns for most with the yellow being silk.



The loom he used was a 48 inch, 12 shaft, manual dobby, with flying shuttle which is now owned by my wife.

His hose were knit by me on my Hand-Cranked Circular Sock Knitting Machine in color-coordinating colors.

Here is a sample of the fabric and the hose.
If I am not mistaken this was 16oz fabric woven from Merino and silk at 80 epi.



That is a 1 inch grid on the table.

[NHhighlander]

(Uh, I tried to "aye" your comment, double-clicked, almost called the cops on you. Clumsy me.)

There are a wide and confusing range of ways that yarn is categorized and measured.

This is so refreshing to hear! ("validating," said a colleague in similar circumstances)
It's not that I'm slow or something, it's just the way it is. Got it.

A very common Tartan weaving Yarn is 20/2 wool.
Here is just one source - https://woolery.com/lamana-milano-yarn.html

If you see the yarn listed as no.2, WPI, with a word like 'lace', or meters/100 grams you are usually dealing with a knitting yarn.

Hmmm, I'm coming across that word, "lace," a lot, which nags me some as the heavy manly kilt made with delicate lace-rated material...
Definitely NOT the kind of yarn that I grew up with, anyway.

indeed, 2/20 or 20/2 seems to be the "what," as I am digging deeper into suppliers.
Yet, when the WPI is indicated (wraps per inch) these are disclosed in the 15, 18 range. Good to know that indicates it's knitting yarn.

I want at least 25, 30 warp threads per inch or better. 40+? The Duncan sett is 288 as per the Register. If I want two "canonical" setts in my 22-inch-bellybutton-to-floor-kneeling plus a neat fancy selvedge pattern, it is kind of close, and I'd have to do permutations if I want three. And I do want three, somehow it "looks" nicer to me, but that's, lessee, (288 x 3 + 100)/22, 43 EPI.... 964 heddles. Add 10% for constriction or whatever is called as the weave naturally shrinks.
Past the K barrier.
Yet, as Mom said, piano, piano (se arriva lontano).

This is a kilt made from hand woven fabric, in the Wildcat Tartan, woven by one of our members. He used 20/2 wool yarns for most with the yellow being silk.

Yeah, @Truitt! I did read his tale.
Hmm, let's link it here also, a worthy conversation for an outstanding, inspiring project!
Hand Woven Tartan Fabric
https://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/...n-fabric-88967

His hose were knit by me on my Hand-Cranked Circular Sock Knitting Machine in color-coordinating colors.

Mouth watering post there is, about your hand cranked sock knitting machine (which was actually invented by a local to Franklin, New Hampshire, don't remember his name off my head. Or so the Laconia museum says...)

Here is a sample of the fabric and the hose.
If I am not mistaken this was 16oz fabric woven from Merino and silk at 80 epi.

80 EPI . Are we talking EPI as one way, i.e, count for warp (then, add the same count for weft, of course), then a total of 160 threads in a 1-inch piece of fabric, because 80 + 80? (warp + weft), or is it that 80 EPI means 40 + 40? I'm afraid that the 'net is confusing, also...
(I sort of seem to recall Truitt mentioning "40" somewhere, but I could easily be mistaken)



In other news, the first results of the natural dye experiments. The red is cochineal, the brown is local NH lychen+iron (some iron fertilizer I had on hand), both first soaked in alum. Top and second from the left is Amazon-sourced, the rest is Bolivian Highlands homespun. Now green, blue, black...

NaturalColorYarn.jpg

[Pleater]

English wool used a 560 yard skein - if 4 skeins of the finished yarn weighed 16 oz that would be 4ply yarn. It would be - probably - 2/8 worsted count as it would be 2 ends twisted together of wool spun to 8 skeins to the pound.

Worsted count, Cotton count and High Bulk Acrylic count are all being phased out in favour of the metric count - though it is less useful to hand knitters as the density of the yarn is not taken into account - but industry seems to be coping just fine.

Wraps per inch is something I only came across when I started dealing with hand spinners.

I have a fishing line measurer and accurate scales from the time I used to make yarn to sell and needed to ensure that I was getting the correct length per weight.

Anne the Pleater

[NHhighlander]

English wool used a 560 yard skein - if 4 skeins of the finished yarn weighed 16 oz

I am starting to have a feel that length / weight ratio might be the one measure that can translate apples into oranges.

Hmm, let's put that to the test...
The amazon yarn I purchased was 1.8 oz skeins, 130 yards(light/DK weight, whatever that is, I've seen this DK indicator in several places). At 40 ends/inch warp, and weft, a square yard, 40x36x2, 2880 yards. divided 130, times 1.8, 39 ounces. No good. Let's inverse see how dense I can max out. 16 ounces, divided 1.8 times 130, 1155 yards. Divided 2, divided 36, this particular yarn maxes out at 16 threads each of weft and warp, for 16 oz fabric. Must be less than half the weight to be considered "heavy" at 40 EPI. Ouch.

I have a fishing line measurer and accurate scales from the time I used to make yarn to sell and needed to ensure that I was getting the correct length per weight.

Anne the Pleater

Now that's an idea! I mean, a fishing line measurer to have a reference for whether the homespun I acquire is what I want/need.

[Pleater]

A double knitting thickness knitting yarn is around 6ply - that is 6 oz per 560yard skein
I believe that 20/2nM is just finer then a 2 ply, so just less than 1/3rd the thickness of the double knitting. You would divide the larger number by the smaller to get the finished weight of the yarn.

Double knitting is usually about 3metres per gram, shown as 6/2
English 4 ply is 4.5 metres per gram a 9/2
3 ply is 6 metres per gram, a 12/2
2ply is 9, a 18/2
1ply is 18, 36/2

A common weight of industrial yarn is 13.5 nM and it is between 1 and 2 ply.

I have been using these count systems and converting between them for a long time so combined with a sliderule and a bit of approximation I can translate fairly freely..

Anne the Pleater

[Steve Ashton]

To give you a little insight into commercially woven Tartan fabric.

Here is a shot of 16oz Marton Mills in the Victoria, City of Gardens Tartan. I chose this for this photo due to the white stripe. It makes the Sett easy to count.
This Tartan is woven with 36 warp and 36 weft per inch. This is the same that Marton Mills advertises for their Jura fabric.




The rule of thumb for comparison to WPI (Wraps Per Inch) is that for balanced plain weave you take 1/2 the WPI, and 2/3 WPI for balanced Twill weave.
If you follow the rule of thumb this would give you a yarn that is about 24/2.

Here are some weaving yarns showing the WPI (Wraps Per Inch).

The Brown on the left is 40/2 in Linen. It measures at 60 WPI.

The Blue on the right is 18/2 in Wool and this yarn is 42 WPI.

[NHhighlander]

The rule of thumb for comparison to WPI (Wraps Per Inch) is that for balanced plain weave you take 1/2 the WPI, and 2/3 WPI for balanced Twill weave.
If you follow the rule of thumb this would give you a yarn that is about 24/2.

Perfect agreement!

That is the same number I came up with a few minutes ago (maybe by coincidence ; I'm not sure of my maths anymore), as I am fixin' at this moment to write to Brassard (Plessisville, Quebec, Canada), who have an extensive catalogue of yarns, and very attractive prices http://www.mbrassard.com/. That company comes recommended by Leclerc, a Canadian loom-maker company past 125 years of operation, that I have grown fond of (especially because they make their vintage manuals openly available, lots of good ideas as to loom architecture) http://www.leclerclooms.com/draw_inst/Draw_inst.htm .

Though, with shipping and unknown tariffs, who knows right now...

Anyway, at the end of the day, the width of the thread is the exact needed measure but hard to ascertain really until woven (compression, elasticity vary), but the best indicator prior to buying is probably still the oz/sq yard accepted numbers (16oz heavy, etc) translated as necessary by the count of threads per inch (and doubling, as per weft+warp). I feel I will need to be rounding up 3,000 yards per pound, if I'm aiming for 3 setts vertically at 42 TPI to stay "canon."

However. I have a feeling that, in the words of Mr. Spock, "this doesn't compute." Such fine, fine yarn, while possible, is unlikely to be used by a crofter for his own family use (and I want the feel of the moors rather than one of an Edinburgh salon). Unless in making a heirloom... (I've read of very fine ancient fabric, but its fineness is then attributed precisely to perhaps being part of a dowry, or something extra valuable).
I'll munch on that matter, but, as wisely advised, I'll try not to overthink it.

For Duncan, 2xGreen, 1xBlue, a pinch of Red, White, Black, adding up to some amount of pounds for 8 yards at 22 inches width. I've been prototyping, and "to the sett" feels might need some extra length, but I'm still too new to speak. Plus lossage of different types. 3.5 lbs feels about right, but I better make a spreadsheet; the numbers, they runneth over, by now. 130 $CAD sound like an amazing deal, for 3.5 lbs Brassard's 2,100 yds/lb, even 350 $CAD is within budget parameters for the incredible 5040 yds/lb that they call 18/2 Merino.

Might have to give up on the homespun for the first major go. Possibly not enough time to have it made to order in the Bolivian Highlands at such fine dimension and brought over, considering I must more urgently address building the loom as the next major developmental milestone.

Thank you oh so very much for those detailed pictures, certainly helps me envision the issues.