An X Marks tartan

[Alan H]

Well, actually I did phone the Canadian mills.
And I called Marton Mills. (Which I have dealt with in the past)
Minimum orders is going to be the big problem with all of these suppliers.
There is one mill in Vancouver willing to do the job but they use Austrailian wool which is spun differently from what kilts are normally made from.
I am also willing to front for 30 or 40 yards of the tartan. But remember, I am not a traditional kilt maker. I am making my own Kilt with Barb's Posse, but it's not what I do everyday. and I'm already busy filling my own orders.
I'm sure someone ordering a kilt in our tartan wants a guarentee of a first rate job.
Let's get the tartan selection issue nailed down first. We can't even get that done.

Well, now You ROCK!

We'll get there on selecting the tartan. We're just giving everyone a chance to come up with their own design if they want to. If nobody submits one by next Friday, then we'll vote on Matt's.

[Mike1]

This cannot really be a one-person job.. Matt has designed some tartans.

Alan, Matt has done more than that - he has repeatedly pointed out that he can get material woven in quantities as small as 4 yards, if anyone is interested.

End of problem. No time limits, no phone calls and no major investments of operating capital by any or all of the forum's kiltmakers. You wouldn't need a hero to finance this project, because Matt is already the hero with the material availablility he has to offer.

Before you point out that Matt's cost per yard may be a bit higher, let me ask what value you place on your own time?

[Alan H]

This cannot really be a one-person job.. Matt has designed some tartans.

Alan, Matt has done more than that - he has repeatedly pointed out that he can get material woven in quantities as small as 4 yards, if anyone is interested.

End of problem. No time limits, no phone calls and no major investments of operating capital by any or all of the forum's kiltmakers. You wouldn't need a hero to finance this project, because Matt is already the hero with the material availablility he has to offer.

Before you point out that Matt's cost per yard may be a bit higher, let me ask what value you place on your own time?

You are one hundred percent correct. However, Matt is talking about really nice wool that will retail for about $65 a yard. That's more than "a bit" higher. Poly viscose retails for less than half of that and wholesales for a quarter of that. For a four yard kilt at Matt's prices (which are perfectly reasonable for what you get, BTW) that is $280 for just the material. Add in your kiltmakers time and now we're talking about a $450 kilt, bare, drop-dead minimum cost...for a four-yard. If you want an 8 yard kilt it will be $500 just for the material, and $700 or more for the finished product.

Now, those would be absolutely wonderful kilts, but how many people can afford that? People who can afford the custom kilts that Matt is talking about should absolutely get them. I'd LOVE a custom-made kilt in first-class wool like this! Here, watch me drool! If you can afford to get one of these kilts made in the X Marks tartan, then I strongly encourage you to go to Matt as soon as the tartan is finally decided upon and get one made!

Now, if Matt has a source that will produce wool or a reasonable synthetic or a blend in small quantities for, say $15-$20 a yard, we're on to something. Then the material for the kilt would be $80 and some of the kiltmakers on the board can produce a kilt for around $100 in labor, so that means a $180 "casual" X marks kilt...spot on!

[Avonlea22]

I personally like the idea of the material being wool. If it's $65/yard, then it may be a while before I coukd purchase some. If it's more like $45 to $50/yard, I could get it that much sooner. Are the prices that are being thrown around for the wool the actual cost, or marked up? Matt?

[Mike1]

That was me, perhaps being far too subtle.

However, Matt is talking about really nice wool that will retail for about $65 a yard.

OK, I do have some hard facts on tartan costs. I've recently ordered 10 yards of 13 oz. material from Lochcarron, paid the exchange, the duty and the freight to get it into the States for that kind of money. $657.65, to be precise. This was from a run of 90 meters of the material.

For a four yard kilt at Matt's prices (which are perfectly reasonable for what you get, BTW) that is $280 for just the material.

You've some flawed math, here - $65.00 X 4 = $260.00, not $280.00.

Add in your kiltmakers time and now we're talking about a $450 kilt, bare, drop-dead minimum cost...for a four-yard.

So you are "guesstimating" an approximate $200.00 labor expense, it would appear. Correct?

If that is the case, then why do you turn around and state -

...some of the kiltmakers on the board can produce a kilt for around $100 in labor...

Based on this labor "guesstimate", your "bare, drop-dead minimum cost" has been reduced by $90.00.

From where I sit, it seems that you are trying to ramrod this project through, when you have very few hard facts to work with. Why not re-establish your time limitations to allow 6-8 weeks of information gathering? Why does this have to happen right now? Some breathing room would allow the kiltmakers the opportunity to contact their suppliers for firm quotes and also give forum members the time to consider what they truly want.

I also want to point out that it is normal and customary for a merchant to realize profit on materials sold, in addition to any labor charges. Would you carry your own raw meat into a local restaurant and ask them to prepare and serve it to you for the cost of the cooking time alone?

Instead of rushing about, saying that this or that might or might not be realistic, why not take the time to assess what truly IS real? If I am purchasing anything, I don't want to know "about" what it might cost, I want to know what it actually will cost.

[Alan H]

Mike...I'll go in order, here.

I've inquired with both Matt and Barb on this forum about their labor costs to make a kilt and they told me what it cost. They've actually posted what their fees are, publically on the board. $200 is a bit on the low side for a hand-sewn kilt. Note: Hand-sewn...custom, hand sewn, hidden stitches and so on. That's what Matt and Barb do.

You paid about $65 a yard for superb-quality material. I bet it's nice stuff! So the $65 a yard that Matt is quoting for equally high-quality material is right in there.

Next: You're right, I can't multiply!

OK, next...Matt and Barb build custom, hand-sewn kilts. This is time-consuming and painstaking work. Rocky and Kelly at USA Kilts and Bear at Bear Kilts and Steve at Freedom Kilts all make machine-sewn kilts. The stitching isn't "hidden", for example. A USA Kilts Philabeg costs around $110, all up. The Basic Freedom kilts goes for $180. Well, there's about $50 worth of material (roughly, wholesale price) in a USA Kilts philabeg. So in other words, Rocky and Kelly are making a philabeg for around...roughly... $60 in labor. They're traditional kilts are more labor intensive. They're not getting rich doing this! Bear says he turns out one kilt a day. OK, his four-yard kilts cost about $150 USA. If there's $50 of materials int here, then he's building s machine-stitched kilt for around $100. I could be ten or twenty bucks off in my estimates here, sure.... but not a hundred dollars off, eh?

So around these parts, figure that it costs roughly $100 in labour to build a good quality machine-stitched, four yard kilt in synthetic fabric.. It costs twice that and a bit more in labour to produce a hand-sewn, personally tailored kilt in wool.

ABout ramrodding... I'm certainly not trying to ramrod the project through, Mike. I think the whole thing will take 2-3 months before anyone has a kilt on their hips. Also, we've not even settled on the tartan, yet! But to move things along, there's no reason why we can't get going on fabric while we wait for the tartan selection process to happen. That'd shave a week off of that 2 - 3 months.

If you like the idea, and you really want a custom made, supreme quality wool kilt, then I think you should go right ahead and order one from Matt as soon as the tartan is decided upon. I hope you DO do that! I hope a bunch of people do that! I'd love to do that.....but I can't justify the expense.

Mike if you'd like to make a contribution towards getting a bunch of budget, or "casual" kilts made, then I absolutely wholeheartedly encourage you to make some phone calls/e-mails around to potential sources of fabric that you may know about, and report the results here on the forum. The more information, and the more accurate, the better!

I'm up-front about this. I am NO expert on the world of commercial fabric. I know nothing. Nada. Zip. I can push around some rough numbers and make estimates of what it would cost, but I entirely welcome the input and suggestions of those who know more than I do. I do know, however, that if the only option for an X Marks tartan kilt is to get 8 yards of $65 a yard cloth from Scotland and then pay a professional to hand-stitch a tailored kilt, then not very many guys on this forum will have X Marks kilts around their hips.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I personally like the idea of the material being wool. If it's $65/yard, then it may be a while before I coukd purchase some. If it's more like $45 to $50/yard, I could get it that much sooner. Are the prices that are being thrown around for the wool the actual cost, or marked up? Matt?

$65 per yard is my usual retail price for custom woven tartan cloth for a single four-yard kilt. This cloth is 100% worsted wool, twill weave, 16 oz per yard, 28" wide, and woven in Scotland. In other words, it is premeire kilting cloth.

I charge $220 in labor, so all told a four-yard box pleated kilt in the X Marks tartan from me would cost $480. (Still less than a normal 8 yard knife pleated kilt in a stock tartan, I might point out).

I can go down on the cost of the cloth if I have larger quantites woven up at a time. How much less depends on how much cloth I am ordering. But it is never going to be as cheap per yard as a ploy-viscose. I'll repeat my old axiom -- you get what you pay for!

If people are truly interested in having an inexpensive poly-vis kilt made, here is what you need to do. Stop worrying about calling mills and finding a source for cloth! Get one of the people on this board who make that style of kilt in on this dicussion. They are already going to have sources for cloth, they will already know costs and minimum orders, and they can probably get a lesser wholesale cost than can an individual. Like me with the wool, they will be able to quote you a price on the finished product, and you won't have to worry about all the details.

Aye,
Matt

[beerbecue]

Wow, sure is a lot going on......

I am excited to see this much activity for an XMarks tartan - I really love the idea.

As far as buying material, I would not be up for it for some months, even though I am quite interested. Job searches, moving, etc., won't permit me to even think about a purchase right now.

Now I know my lack of participation in a group purchase won't prevent one from happening, but if the purchase didn't officially occur until the fall, I would be more than happy (and able) to get it on it.

If one is so inclined, and hot to trot for one right away, there is nothing stopping a single person from ordering a custom made kilt from a maker who can order the custom material. I think that option is unrealistic for a group discussion, and probably doesn't need to be discussed with so much enthusiasm and debate (things have been a little heated). If one were so inclined, you wouldn't even need a 'vote' on the 'official' tartan, you could just order whichever one you like....

Since this thread has gotten so big, it is obvious that there is a lot of interest and support for the whole idea. Perhaps the focus should be on a decent size run of material, and if the time is taken, perhaps more people could get in on it to get the money up for the run.

Also, there is no need, as was brought up in a similar, previous thread, to calculate in the cost of the kilt-making into the equation. I think each person can decide on their own who will make their kilt, and leave it at that. It might make it simpler just to focus on the fabric run...

Focus on the tartan, then focus on the weaver, then focus on who will make your kilt......

Sorry if I rambled or repeated myself..

Just my $0.01, such as it is......

[Doc Hudson]

Focus on the tartan, then focus on the weaver, then focus on who will make your kilt......

Talk about knocking one over the centerfield fences, but Beerbecue sure hit a homerun on this point.

Lots of us might be interested in an XMarks tartan and kilt, but not many of us can afford one on short notice. Putting a 2 or three month deadline on ordering and buying material is liable to kill the project before it takes off.

Matt, I'll wager that there's not many folks here who wouldn't prefer a wool kilt, whether box-pleated or knife-pleated. Unfortunately, the majority of us have trouble shaking loose $500.00 for a kilt as easily as $200.00-- 300.00.00, and that amount isn't easy for all of us. A synthetic material might not be as nice, but it is certainly more affordable. I've no problem with folks who want fine to order Wool, and the rest of us getting by with poly-vis, or other fabric.

Let's turn off the afterburners and slow down a little. If the project is going to fly at all, it is going to take TIME. Even if we decided on a tartan today, and placed an order with a mill on Monday, I'll bet it would be July or August before we see the cloth, and then it would be after Christmans before everyone got their kilt.

As a friend often says. Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome.

[KiltedBishop]

OOOOOOHHHMMMMMMMM........OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHMMMMMMM MMM

Say it with me now.

I think these are all resonable statements but overall we need to put the excitment about a new kilt in "our" tartan put aside and go through this logically and intelligently.
It sounds to me like wool would be easier, and obviously better quality, but more expensive. PV would take more people and be less expensive for the individual, but a bigger deal for the person ordering it. I think Matt makes a VERY good point to try and arrange this through an exisiting kilt maker. Bear, USAKilts, etc. But let's remember we all want the same thing. A really cool kilt to wear!