The Tartan Police!

[Kilts_Knave]

The problem with saying "X is not a kilt because of feature Y" is that for many values of Y, an unquestionably traditional kilt exists that has Y. Glenn

Now THAT is what I call infallible logic ---- mazel tov!

[Jerry]

While it is my personal preference to wear tartan kilts which are associated with either side of my family ( a non traditional idea in itself), I have seen a few solids whick looked so sharp, and I might even consider wearing one. I do believe that the newer style kilts are a modern evolvement of the traditional kilts. I feel that the so called kilt police who insist that kilts can never evlove are similar to those people who would have Tiger Woods using wooden heads and shafts instead of steel or Composite with Titanium heads, to drive Old Tom Morris' Feathery ball 170 yards instead of hitting the modern balls 350 yards.

[macwilkin]

I feel that the so called kilt police who insist that kilts can never evlove are similar to those people who would have Tiger Woods using wooden heads and shafts instead of steel or Composite with Titanium heads, to drive Old Tom Morris' Feathery ball 170 yards instead of hitting the modern balls 350 yards.

I am no golfer by any means, but what about someone that prefers wooden heads & shafts for his golf clubs? Someone who likes the "old"? Someone who doesn't feel that everyone should conform to his way of thinking, but on the same token, feels that he should be left to make up his own mind about what kind of club he wants to play with?

I think the majority of "traditionalists" here share this attitude: whilst we have own ideas & opinions (as everyone else does) about kilts & kilt-wearing, I know I believe that these are what's right for me, and I would not dare force them on someone else -- when asked, I will certainly give my opinion (for what it's worth), but if someone asks me to respect their "modern" kilt or their personal style, I certainly would hope for the same in return.

Regards,

Todd

[Dreadbelly]

Instead of all this bouncing back and forth about what tradition is... Why not define it?

Where does tradition begin and end? The Great Kilt? Oh wait, most people don't wear that as a day to day garmet. Not practical. Nope, that's kept in the closet and largely viewed as costume or for "special occasions."

Some of the more modern versions of the kilt have become traditional simply because they are more practical, right? I mean, I could be wrong here, but isn't that what it boils down to?

Tradition compared to what? The more I read about my family's history, the less I even see of kilt wearing. Dirty landless vegabonds. Thieves driven by situation and circumstance. Warriors. I am fairly certain that not to many folk in my family wore Prince Charlies and eight yard traditional tanks. I am betting that somewhere up the line, somebody might have wore a kilt, but I bet it was a filthy rag of some scrap of tartan, loosely bound about the waist as a great kilt. I bet they were dirty and bare foot... Or wearing clogs or crude moccasins. From the sounds of it... They were more particular about their weapons than their clothing, at least my family. I can see "tradition" there. In all their poverty, in all their shining proud accomplishments, in every moment of their lives it seems that folk, at least in my family, always kept a good weapon close at hand or used whatever might be handy. But it is a common theme I see in my family history... Is that tradition? It seems to me that I could be wearing any old rag... But as long as I have some sort of weapon tucked away in the folds I would be doing more to pay tribute to "tradition" than I would nitpicking over detail of dress.

I dunno. But it's got me thinking.

[Jerry]

I'm not saying that you or others are wrong by wanting to only go with traditional kilts, or in my example to use the antique golf equipment. I am saying that both are right. We can "choose" whatever we want for ourselves. Where we (including myself) go wrong is to say that evolvement and change is wrong. It's not wrong, just different. As I said, so far, I have only traditional styled tartan kilts. The solids which I have seen are also very traditional looking, with the three belts and buckles instead of snaps hooks or even velcro fasteners. While I personally like The "utilikilt look" fot myself, I don't see anything wrong with them for someone else.

[macwilkin]

Instead of all this bouncing back and forth about what tradition is... Why not define it?

Where does tradition begin and end? The Great Kilt? Oh wait, most people don't wear that as a day to day garmet. Not practical. Nope, that's kept in the closet and largely viewed as costume or for "special occasions."

Some of the more modern versions of the kilt have become traditional simply because they are more practical, right? I mean, I could be wrong here, but isn't that what it boils down to?

Tradition compared to what? The more I read about my family's history, the less I even see of kilt wearing. Dirty landless vegabonds. Thieves driven by situation and circumstance. Warriors. I am fairly certain that not to many folk in my family wore Prince Charlies and eight yard traditional tanks. I am betting that somewhere up the line, somebody might have wore a kilt, but I bet it was a filthy rag of some scrap of tartan, loosely bound about the waist as a great kilt. I bet they were dirty and bare foot... Or wearing clogs or crude moccasins. From the sounds of it... They were more particular about their weapons than their clothing, at least my family. I can see "tradition" there. In all their poverty, in all their shining proud accomplishments, in every moment of their lives it seems that folk, at least in my family, always kept a good weapon close at hand or used whatever might be handy. But it is a common theme I see in my family history... Is that tradition? It seems to me that I could be wearing any old rag... But as long as I have some sort of weapon tucked away in the folds I would be doing more to pay tribute to "tradition" than I would nitpicking over detail of dress.

I dunno. But it's got me thinking.

I think you're missing my point again.

As a historian, I recognise the fact that the kilt, like many other garments, has evolved over time. I recognise that many of these changes have been for a practical reason. I also recognise that many of the "traditions" we associate with Highland attire really aren't that old & that some are not even based in fact. If you look through my posts you will see that I do not support all "traditions" in Highland attire, but on the whole, I consider myself a "traditionalist" when comes to my kilt.

For me, the kilt is a tanigble symbol of my heritage, so I want to display my pride in my Scots ancestors who left their home and moved to Canada & the United States. It's no different for me when I wear my National Park Service uniform, or a reproduction Civil War or Spanish-American War uniform, or my attire when I'm working at the library or attending church. I like the "pride of place". That's right for me, it may not be right for others. That's fine. We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns, after all.

All I am asking for is the same respect that others ask of me.

Regards,

Todd

[KMacT]

...those people who would have Tiger Woods using wooden heads and shafts instead of steel or Composite with Titanium heads...

In general I agree with your sentiments. People should be allowed to wear what they want (be it "traditional" or "modern"), traditions change and evolve, and respect should be given regardless.

But the golf analogy fails. It's a sport and there may be very valid reason to prohibit the use of certain clubs or balls. And in fact, there are such prohibitions. Modern golf balls and clubs, for example, must meet certain specifications before they are approved. And maybe the game would be better if played with old clubs just as baseball, I believe, is better played with wood bats (as is mandated in MLB) and tennis with wooden rackets (as is not mandated, much to the detriment of the sport).

Kevin

[Will Macadam]

While it is my personal preference to wear tartan kilts which are associated with either side of my family ( a non traditional idea in itself), I have seen a few solids whick looked so sharp, and I might even consider wearing one. I do believe that the newer style kilts are a modern evolvement of the traditional kilts. I feel that the so called kilt police who insist that kilts can never evlove are similar to those people who would have Tiger Woods using wooden heads and shafts instead of steel or Composite with Titanium heads, to drive Old Tom Morris' Feathery ball 170 yards instead of hitting the modern balls 350 yards.

Jerry,
I think the thread is evolving! We all mostly accept kilts will evolve, go for solids my man, not a problem with me.

What I found upsetting was the way the group photo posted on the Tartan Police website showed a bunch of people wearing what appeared to be Great Kilts (ie historical garments) as if they were frat house togas.

Your point about Tiger reinforces the benefits of HIGH standards of excellence, and CONFORMITY to a given! Be it golf equipment, or personal integrity when it comes to honouring Scots heritage.

I wonder if those who loudly proclaim their right to wear Highland dress 'as they damn well please' would feel if I took it upon myself to assume by reverse logic that a Caledonian presence in America entitled me, as a Scot in Scotland, for example, to dress up as a frontiersman in a spangly pink Kit Carson outfit with a Marines cap worn backwards, a replica of General Lee's sword swirled in Candy Floss, and finish it off with the Presidential seal sewn to the **** of my sequinned frontiersman pants.
Not only do I embarass myself as a bufoon, I disrespect Americas' heritage.

It's an extreme example, sure, but that's how we 'homegrown' Scots feel when we see the kilt 'paraded' with little thought at heritage events in the States, OR anyplace else, BY anyone else, its not exclusively an American transgression!

But, regretfully, it does seem to be CERTAIN, BY NO MEANS ALL folks 'across the pond' who have the greatest difficulty with knowing when its OK to do your thing and when its just plain less embarrassing to you and your 'hosts', to be a little more refined, and frankly, knowledgeble, in how the damn thing is worn, if you choose to attend a gathering where Celtic heritage is the headlining act, if you will.

I'm all for individuality and progress, by all means get out there in a t shirt and your synthetic Tartan! Or your cammo UK, or if you really must, your mom's flowery frock, yup, live it, and love it!

Even as a kilted newbie I know, lord do I know, just how much moolah Highland dress costs to wear in full, but I get irritated as a lifelong Scot, when people at a Scots event clearly wear a kilt without even BOTHERING to find out if there might be an etiquette, much less attempt to defer to it.

Let me bottom line it for the benefit of any reefer-heads whom we lost in the first paragraph. The 'crime' is not that of individuality, it's one of gross ignorance to the point where you just end up looking like a complete 'shmuck', as you guys say over there.

Will.
PS Todd, are you happier now?

[cavscout]

It's an extreme example, sure, but that's how we 'homegrown' Scots feel when we see the kilt 'paraded' with little thought at heritage events in the States, OR anyplace else, BY anyone else, its not exclusively an American transgression!

But, regretfully, it does seem to be CERTAIN, BY NO MEANS ALL folks 'across the pond' who have the greatest difficulty with knowing when its OK to do your thing and when its just plain less embarrassing to your 'hosts', to be a little more refined, and frankly, knowledgeble, in how the damn thing is worn, if you choose to attend a gathering where Celtic heritage is the headlining act, if you will.

This is a indicator of a culture who is more concerned about the right to do whatever they want but not interested in taking the responsibility to do it respectfully / correctly.

[Will Macadam]

Dreadbelly,
I admire your argument, have done from the start of the thread.
May I add that I'm one of those Scots that came from a Glasgow tenement in a suburb called Priesthill (The Scots here will know of it well!) 48 Linnhead Drive to be exact. A hellhole of deprivation in 1975, maybe it came good, i neither know or care...
With lots of luck, and a determination to do better, I did.
On the way up and out, I learned that respect pays big dividends, or to put it another way, If you can't beat them -join them.
What's my point? I'm not sure, it's late here in Sydney, and I'm fatigued.
Maybe it's just that as a latter day urchin done good, I see your pugnacious point, but wonder why the hostility?
It's nice to be fed, and clean, and wearing a warm Prince Charlie Jacket
(actually, i dislike the PC and have an Argyll in Green!)
It's nice to be able to defend Edinburgh-inspired points of kilt decorum and somewhat arcane and nitpickkety rules, instead of scrabbling to find a reefer butt or glue poke or spray can, or knock back tinned Lager dregs in the urine scented stairwells at Linnhead Drive.
Peace, Wullie