Little holes in my UK Kilts? Silence on the UK Board

[arrogcow]

Yeah Steve, I know, I just find it humorous. Hey, I'm not knocking em for it, it's just American business. It's just the implication they created it that gets me giggling like Renfield. ;)

I agree it is pretty stupid. Kaber kilts also aparently has the patent for a box pleat.

Adam

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I realize that UK doesn't promote itself as celtic (though they sell at a heck of a lot of celtic festivals), never said they were, as for them selling to a "an entirely different mind-set, population, culture and customer base," I think you're somewhat wrong.

I REALLY wish people would actually quote me when they do this stuff!

Most importantly... they're marketed to an entirely different mind-set, population, culture and customer base.

Before anyone else asks... yes, that comes straight from a meeting with the owner of UtiliKilts. Furthermore, I really like the guy too! I have yet to meet anyone with his eclectic and quick sense-of-humor.

I also have absolutely NO problems with his marketing or his products. It has nothing to do with Celtic kilts.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Jimmy, my comment was directed at the casual kilt companies (by that I mean the non tartan, pocket sporting, solid/print/cammo kilt making companies). UK created the market and all the others have jumped on the band wagon because they see that there is a demand for such a product. I think this is a great idea...

As for traditional kilt makers owing UK something, again I never said that.

Thanks for clarifying the original post which was:

Frankly most of you kilt makers here owe your business to UK.

I wasn't able to "read into" the post. Sorry about that.

[arrogcow]

Steve,

Your post "implied" that you were saying UK's are made in sweat shops. While your info on the conditions of the sewing industry are interesting, they are not relevant. The term "Sweat Shop" connotates slave labor, and is untrue in UK's case. Shoot, they have won awards for their positive business practices.

Second, you were in business selling your Freedon Kilts before UK? Really? I had searched for a company like that for years. Where were you hiding?

Finally I agree with you on one point. I wish that UK would not market so agressively to Gay Pride events and Fettish convintions. Not that I have a problem with anyone wearing one, just that I also don't want it perceived as a gay thing (I wish that they would do more to discourage women from wearing them as well. While I admit that a woman looks cute in a mini UK, it does kind of undermine calling them men's clothing). I also agree that someone from UK should participate here officially (I think there are a couple of employees that do pop in on occasion).

Adam

[arrogcow]

OK, the last line kid just say kilt makers (and it did say most not all), but farther up the post it said

Without UK, NONE of the casual kilt makers would be in business. Before UK the only non-traditional kilts available were 21st Century kilts, and they still cost as much as a traditional that it really wasn't possible to have 3-10 in a wardrobe to wear all the time. Steve at UK had an idea, and it has spawned a huge movement in Men's clothing.

My bad for the last line.

Adam

[bubba]

Finally I agree with you on one point. I wish that UK would not market so agressively to Gay Pride events and Fettish convintions. Not that I have a problem with anyone wearing one, just that I also don't want it perceived as a gay thing (I wish that they would do more to discourage women from wearing them as well. While I admit that a woman looks cute in a mini UK, it does kind of undermine calling them men's clothing).
Adam

Again, it's business. The point is to sell Utilikilts, as many as they can, to put cash in the coffers. They'd sell to a horse if the horse paid the money for one and they aim their marketing where ever they feel they'll get adequate return on the investment. It really is that simple. It's just business, not good or bad, it just is.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Again, it's business. The point is to sell Utilikilts, as many as they can, to put cash in the coffers. They'd sell to a horse if the horse paid the money for one and they aim their marketing where ever they feel they'll get adequate return on the investment. It really is that simple. It's just business, not good or bad, it just is.

There was another kilt company a while ago that was approached with doing business with a similar marketing plan. Instead of being in the solid market, they were in the tartan side. Partly out of respect for the heritage, and partly out of fear of the appearances for anyone in a tartan kilt, the "alternative lifestyle" marketing angle was not taken. Fortunately to this point, the cultural significance of the tartan kilt has not been exploited for profit and sales. I hope it stays that way.

[Canuck]

Your web site doesn't mention hip measurements, and it implies that you have standard lengths like UK. Now that I know that, I agree that the extra $36 is probably worth it. I have actually wished in the past that your (and some of your fellows) web sites, were a little more detailed. What fabric (exactly) can I get from you, can I see a pic in each color, etc. Keep up the good work though.

I am probably getting my next kilt from Jeff, I too have a little one showing up in October, and he needs his first kilt to match daddies.

Adam

My web page does refer to hip measurement here is the link
http://www.rkilts.com/guy_sizing.htm
Yes I need to have work done on my web page I need to have better navigation, better photo's all the things you mention and it is in the works.... gotta go back to sewing congrats on the new yet to come offspring.
Cheers
Robert

[Rufus]

Sorry Adam, but your last post was out of line. It was in violation of the "Personal Vendetta" rule. There's no need to resort to personal attacks on this forum. If you choose to pursue Ron on the points that you had listed, please take it up in Private Messaging, although I strongly suggest you just let it go.

For everyone else, let's please get back to the original topic of this thread, which concerned the development of holes in Utilikilts. If you would like to discuss the workplace ethics of the Utilikilt company, please start your own thread.

[cjbass]

Hello Everyone!
My name is CJ and I am the Operations Manager here at Utilikilts.

I have been a member of this site for a while, but I just didn't have the time to keep up with everything that is happening up here. I do post regularly to the Utilikilts Yahoo Group (as Ron mentioned), but got a day behind due to a hard disk failure, and Ron was looking for answers, so he posted his query here. (Which led to this thread.)

A friendly face brought this thread to my attention, and if people don't mind, I'd like to make a couple of comments on things that have been said here. (I realize I am not a regular, and am probably overstepping my bounds for first postings... but I humbly ask for this opportunity to whack a whole flock of birds with a single piece of gravel, if I may. ;-)


First, Ron is an excellent customer in more than one way. He owns a bucketload of our kilts, and several others, too. He is devoted to us and our product, and therefore holds us to a higher standard. We appreciate his feedback because it is always coming from a "good place" rather than from an abuse-cannon. Yeah, he irritates us sometimes, but only because he points out something that bugs us, too, that we do not have a good solution for. Yet.


Second, "manufacturing" vs "hand-made". Our kilts are all "hand-made". Humans cut them out. Humans sew them. Humans check every single stitch to make sure they pass our quality control standards. There is no automation anywhere in the process of producing our kilts. (Outside of invoicing, etc.)

I also appreciate that there is a mental hurdle where people tend to draw a line between "manufacturing" and "hand-made". Our sewing (for now) is done by several outside contractors in the Seattle area. Moving to contracted sewing instead of Steven sewing every single kilt by hand seems to be moving towards "manufacturing", and away from "hand-made". But every kilt is made by one person, start to finish. These are skilled craftswomen who can sew circles around anyone I have ever seen in my life. But this is not a production line process. Each kilt is made start-to-finish by one person, in all but rare cases.

So is that "manufacturing" because the seamstress is not employed by Utilikilts? Or is it "hand-made" because she is a skilled worker who is taking a bunch of pieces of fabric and applying her craft to them to make a complete final product with nothing more than a traditional sewing machine?

That definition is for each person to make on their own. However, make the distinction consciously and from an informed position, not an emotional one.


Third, sweatshops. Nobody accused us of anything, but there was some loose language bandied about. We use professional sewing shops that are governed by the laws and regulations of the state and country in which we live. They are above-the-board, tax paying entities, in large office parks filled with other businesses, and not dark dank secret holes where illegal immigrants work back-breaking hours under a miserable overlord. In fact, most of them are family-owned and run.


Fourth, and finally: The Drill Holes.

I posted a long and detailed reply to Ron's message on the Yahoo Group, and don't really think it needs to be reposted here. But the basic summary is that our pleats are not straight. That is why our kilts fit so nice over the hips and butt.

However, sewing a compound line on a piece of blank fabric is almost impossible to do consistently without some sort of landmarks.

When you cut one kilt out at a time - like a tailor would for a custom-made suit - then you use tailor's chalk and mark on the surface of the fabric itself. (You can usually see these marks on our kilts as well, inside the apron, and right at the "booty line" at the center back of the kilt... until you wash it, and the line is gone forever.)

When you cut 25 layers of fabric at a time to make 25 different kilts, you need a way to mark all 25 layers at the same time while they are stacked.

One way to do this is with a syringe filled with ink that only appears under a blacklight. Plunge the syringe down through the layers of fabric, and as you pull it out, slowly press the plunger so each layer of fabric gets marked. Difficult? Yep. It also has an unfortunate effect on the lighting around the sewing machines... which is generally a place you want to be well-lit!! ;-)

Another way to do the marking is to drill a tiny hole down through the fabric at high speed. On poly-blend fabrics, the high speed melts the polyester, and effectively cauterizes the edge of the hole so it doesn't fray.

On 100% cotton, the hole generally closes up in the first wash and is never heard from again. Then again, sometimes it doesn't and you can see it. Sometimes, the seamstress rolls the edge of the fabric as she sews it so that the hole is on the flat back side of the pleat, and is not easily seen. Other times - like on my personal Caramel Workman's kilt - the seamstress sews it perfectly so the holes are right on the knife-edge of the pleat, the holes don't close, and a year's worth of hard wear makes these marks very visible.

It's a hand-made garment, and therefore varies from seamstress to seamstress, and from day to day. "Variations in fabric color and sewing are simply proof of a hand-made garment, and are to be expected" is usually the cop-out legaleze that some manufacturers use to cover their butt. We don't. We just try to act honorably.


Is this bad quality control? No. Is this the way it is supposed to be? Yes. Is it the way we want it to be? No. Do we have a better solution? No. Are we constantly working to improve our designs so things like this might go away in the future? Yes. Is there a solution on the horizon? Not really.


Slight Divergence:
--------------------
I bought a new pair of Vans checkerboard slip-on skateboarder shoes last year. (Yes, the "Jeff Spiccoli's".) I had two pair that I wore to death skateboarding in the swimming pools of Southern California in the 70's, and had not seen them since. When I saw the pair last year in New York, I bought them on impulse.

I can already see that these will die the same way my pairs from the 70's died: right in line with the ball of your foot, the rubber sole separates from the fabric upper on both sides of the shoe. These holes on the sides of the shoe will just get bigger and bigger, until the shoe effectively separates into two pieces: the toe and the body.

Will I wear them? Yep. Will I love them? Yep. Do I know how they will die? Yep. Will this affect their comfort or utility? Nope. It is an unfortunate design "feature"? Yup.



I hope I have been able to provide some good information here, and that I can participate more fully on this board from now on.

Thanks for listening,
- CJ
Seattle, WA