The New Scottish Super Regiment - Trews vs Kilts

[davedove]

Some people don't realize that there is more to being in the military, and fighting in the military than dollars....or pounds will buy. If money were IT, then Westminster should go hire a bunch of broke African mercenaries, pay them two dollars a day, buy them new uniforms (polyester) and just THINK of all the money they will save.

Unfortunately, things are all dollar driven nowadays. Now, I believe in getting the best value for the taxpayers dollar, but a lot of decision makers seem to forget the value part. This usually results from someone making a decision who never spent any time in the military, or has advanced so far up the ladder they forgot what it's like to be in the troops.

[bubba]

REMFs never talk to the line troops. If they did they'd know better than to make alot of the dumb decisions they do.

[Doc Hudson]

The Remington Ranger, aka REMF's, are a greater danger to the troops than the enemy combants. And that goes whether the REMF's are in the Pentagon or Whitehall!

[James]

Back to the good old argument-this one has ben rolling for nearly two hundred years as units go in and out of the kilt/trews.

What we must remember is that these desicions are made by the Colonels of the Regiments concerned, not the bean counters: and they make a very real efort to preserve the best of the old, and create an excellent new.

The joke being that in one or a hundred years when there are further changes-it will arise again and soldiers serving and ex, will be complaining about losing the results of the changes being made today--oops.

James

[macwilkin]

Back to the good old argument-this one has ben rolling for nearly two hundred years as units go in and out of the kilt/trews.

What we must remember is that these desicions are made by the Colonels of the Regiments concerned, not the bean counters: and they make a very real efort to preserve the best of the old, and create an excellent new.

The joke being that in one or a hundred years when there are further changes-it will arise again and soldiers serving and ex, will be complaining about losing the results of the changes being made today--oops.

James

I don't think you're giving us enough credit here; when we talk about the "bean counters", we are talking about the politicians who were the ones who came up the idea of amalgamation in the first place. Yes, the Council of Scottish colonels does decide about uniforms and the retaining of regimental symbols, etc., but from what I'm reading, there are no guarantees from the MoD concerning this. The colonels may attempt their best, but it may be to no avail.

One possible compromise solution would be to allow the Lowland battalions to wear trews of Goverment sett, since the original trews of Lowland Regiments like the KOSBs, Royal Scots, Royal Scots Fusiliers, etc. was in Government sett. The individual tartans (Leslie for the KOSB, Stewart Hunting for the Royal Scots, etc.) was not adopted until the end of the 19th century, if memory serves me.

T.

[Doc Hudson]

when we talk about the "bean counters", we are talking about the politicians who were the ones who came up the idea of amalgamation in the first place.

Actually Todd, when most of us talk about the blank-dashed bean counters, we are talking about the triple blank-dashed fatherless lovers of gross animals that happen to be BUREAUCRATS!! No one elected them and it if virtually impossible to make them accountable for their actions. They are the ones who really make government odious to many people.

And I believe I can safely say that the situation is basically the same in all governments. Politicians make the news, but bureaucrats run the country.

[James]

Many fair comments, and having experienced my own regiment being merged some years ago, I appreciate the sentiments.

However we must face up to the fact that the unique regiments were unable to recruit enough me to fill their ranks at a battle ready state-so companies had to be imported from other units-so weakening unit cohesion-fighting effectiveness.

Too with small units, it was not possible to have an effective promotion system-give leave and the like.

So like it or not some form of merger was essential-at least that way units can go into action without having to import men from other regiments.

It is also necessary to remember that what might be a highland regiment in name would recruit many of it's men from outside-England even. This was a sensible policy so in the event of heavy casualties, they do not all fall upon one small area.

Another point, the modern large regiment is made up of several Bns-the Bn being the fighting unit/s: whilst the regiment is the badged home of the various Bns and runs such things as the depot-but it is not in itself a fighting unit*. So really the system is little different to the past when there were more regiments: though the fighting elements were the various Bns.

*In the British army the superior organisation to the Bn is the brigade-and the Bns within the brigade will come from a variety of regiments. Thus in Korea 27Inf Brigade was made up of 1 MX & 1 A&SH--a highland and a London Bn. Whilst 51 Brigade was made up of 1 MX-1A&SH and 1 RUR-London-Highland & Ulster.

I'm as sentimental as the next man and hate to see the loss of famous names: but better to lose a name, then lose men thanks to units that are not battle worthy thanks to undermanning and the like.

James

[macwilkin]

Many fair comments, and having experienced my own regiment being merged some years ago, I appreciate the sentiments.

However we must face up to the fact that the unique regiments were unable to recruit enough me to fill their ranks at a battle ready state-so companies had to be imported from other units-so weakening unit cohesion-fighting effectiveness.

Too with small units, it was not possible to have an effective promotion system-give leave and the like.

So like it or not some form of merger was essential-at least that way units can go into action without having to import men from other regiments.

It is also necessary to remember that what might be a highland regiment in name would recruit many of it's men from outside-England even. This was a sensible policy so in the event of heavy casualties, they do not all fall upon one small area.

Another point, the modern large regiment is made up of several Bns-the Bn being the fighting unit/s: whilst the regiment is the badged home of the various Bns and runs such things as the depot-but it is not in itself a fighting unit*. So really the system is little different to the past when there were more regiments: though the fighting elements were the various Bns.

*In the British army the superior organisation to the Bn is the brigade-and the Bns within the brigade will come from a variety of regiments. Thus in Korea 27Inf Brigade was made up of 1 MX & 1 A&SH--a highland and a London Bn. Whilst 51 Brigade was made up of 1 MX-1A&SH and 1 RUR-London-Highland & Ulster.

I'm as sentimental as the next man and hate to see the loss of famous names: but better to lose a name, then lose men thanks to units that are not battle worthy thanks to undermanning and the like.

James

James,

I think the amalgamation would be more widely accepted if the MoD followed the pattern of the Highlanders in 1994, and incorporated regimental symbols rather than trying to create new ones. Anyone remember the "Crucified Moose" badge of the Highland Brigade in the 1960's that was unsuccessfully forced on the Argylls? I personally like the badge, but evidently the Argylls didn't! :mrgreen: The same with the proposed "Childers" tartan which would replace the Government sett as a "universal" tartan to save the government money on uniforms -- the only regiment to adopt it was a Ghurka one! ;)

The Highlanders have done a very good job of incorporating the traditions of the Gordons and the Queen's Own Highlanders, and the QOH did the same thing in 1961 with the Seaforths & Camerons.

As you have pointed out earlier, amalgamation is on-going thing; the 1881 Cardwell reforms upset quite a few folks in their day as well. I don't have a problem with the amalgamation if it benefits the average Jock, but I do not like the lack of respect for regimental traditions and history.

Cheers,

Todd