Origins of the kilt, is it Celtic or not?

[Archangel]

You know, there is a great deal of wisdom to be had by learning from the humble turtle.

Mentioned earlier that many of my native friends are from the Turtle clan of the Ojibway people. We've had good discussions about the commonalities of martial culture, matriarchal lineage and clan structure. Lots of mutual respect.
Google "turtle clan" to see all the wisdom you correctly pointed to.

Goodnight.

[Dreadbelly]

Mentioned earlier that many of my native friends are from the Turtle clan of the Ojibway people. We've had good discussions about the commonalities of martial culture, matriarchal lineage and clan structure. Lots of mutual respect.
Google "turtle clan" to see all the wisdom you correctly pointed to.

Goodnight.

I am not sure exactly what you call it... But the animal sign I am associated with, I guess my totemic animal, crap, I don't know enough about this part of my culture, whatever it's called, it's a thunderbird. I believe I was born to be a Trickster, which is a special type of shaman. At least, some of my family seems to think so. (They also think this is why I wear women's clothing )

Anyhoo, back of subject, the Native Americans had a kilt like garmet. It's quite spiffy.

[Sir Robert]

Dred said: **Grabs shillelagh**

Why would anyone grab a missile designed to be launched from the cannon of a tank that was never built? I would rather have sabot as my battlecarry. (Very obscure referance to 1970s Army tank)

Gee guys you have no sense of humor.

[An t-Ileach]

Given that the (real) Scots were the Dal Riadans, who influenced the peoples east of the Druimn Albainn, and probably acquired things from them in return, and the Kingdom of Dal Riada originated in northern Ireland (possibly limited to the west by the Bann rivers) it would be unsurprising if the Scots did the same as the Irish. And as various writers (such as Cairney) suggest that the Erainnian Gaels might have had a Cruibhne origin too, it would be only natural if all these peoples dressed more or less the same. And given the sea-borne trade up and down the Celtic Sea, with intermarriages and population transfers, we shouldn't exclude the early Welsh from this.

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

[Archangel]

Given that the (real) Scots were the Dal Riadans, who influenced the peoples east of the Druimn Albainn, and probably acquired things from them in return, and the Kingdom of Dal Riada originated in northern Ireland (possibly limited to the west by the Bann rivers) it would be unsurprising if the Scots did the same as the Irish. And as various writers (such as Cairney) suggest that the Erainnian Gaels might have had a Cruibhne origin too, it would be only natural if all these peoples dressed more or less the same. And given the sea-borne trade up and down the Celtic Sea, with intermarriages and population transfers, we shouldn't exclude the early Welsh from this.

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

This might help. Picture the Eurasia land mass and sort of place your hand over India. Broadly sweep your hand west, heading north of the Mediterranean. At the coast of France and over the British Isles do a couple of circles. The Atlantis is the limit.
This exercise illustrates the migration of the Celtic people. Causes vary but they have travelled for centuries. Some settle in different spots. Paul's letter to the Galatians (Gale - Gael - Celt) indicates one point in the migration. Ceasar's war in now France indicate another. Within Britain the Celts are moved by the Romans, Saxons, etc. When there is peace they move back to a previous place, or not. The Celtic migration affected most of Europe and as they were displaced, so they displaced others, sometimes other Celts. As much as they influenced cultures they also absorbed other influences.

We're back to the web of history: a thread pulled here, causes a spider to move there. History is not as linear or as simplistic as "a people moved there."

[Archangel]

So, it's quite likely that they all wore the leine and brat in some fashion: the leine was worn longer than it was in later times, namely to the ankle. It was probably girded with some device like a belt. I read somewhere (Ian Grimble?) that to ride one horse back, or to run when fighting, the leine was hitched up to the knee, or even above it. Could this have established a common style or wearing it, and securing the brat? It's very picturesque (Hollywood-style) to have a flowing cloak billowing out behind you, but I reckon it would be a bloody nuisance in a battle and I would expcet that most people would tie it around them so as not to snag in things - or give the enemy something to grab hold of.

Fighting in tunics:
witness Bible, "gird up your loins" meaning gather all the loose cloth and tie it in a way that doesn't interfere with your fighting.
witness Julius Ceasar: Celts fought naked.
witness Hollywood: see Ceasar add censors.
Unless the fighter is Batman, the cloth is a liability.

[Sir Robert]

Ok Scots and Irish dressed about the same, from 500 to 1000AD, right? At least prior to the time period where we beleive the great kilt likely had it's origins (1600s). Irish dress (Leine & brat) were outlawed by the English in Ireland in 1200s to suppress Irish nationalism. The kilt was outlawed in 1745 to keep the Scots down, also by the English.

So if we follow this line of thought, the Irish and Scottish clothes had gone their seperate ways before the great kilt was born thus the kilt can NOT be considered "Irish."

Now as a second possability what if instead the great kilt in Scotland and the leine & brat have a common ancestor in the toga which is likely at least 5000 years old and brought out of the Med by the Celts then the little kilt could be said to be the remains of a Pan-Celtic Toga.

What you think?

[davedove]

Now as a second possability what if instead the great kilt in Scotland and the leine & brat have a common ancestor in the toga which is likely at least 5000 years old and brought out of the Med by the Celts then the little kilt could be said to be the remains of a Pan-Celtic Toga.

What you think?

I've seen that theory before and it's not altogether unreasonable. Although I wouldn't say that the kilt is a direct development from a toga, it is a later development from a general toga-like manner of dress that existed all across the ancient world.

[Archangel]

Ok Scots and Irish dressed about the same, from 500 to 1000AD, right? At least prior to the time period where we beleive the great kilt likely had it's origins (1600s). Irish dress (Leine & brat) were outlawed by the English in Ireland in 1200s to suppress Irish nationalism. The kilt was outlawed in 1745 to keep the Scots down, also by the English.

So if we follow this line of thought, the Irish and Scottish clothes had gone their seperate ways before the great kilt was born thus the kilt can NOT be considered "Irish."

Now as a second possability what if instead the great kilt in Scotland and the leine & brat have a common ancestor in the toga which is likely at least 5000 years old and brought out of the Med by the Celts then the little kilt could be said to be the remains of a Pan-Celtic Toga.

What you think?

Well, that's valid in the same way that an Armani suit is an extension of the fig leaf. You're approaching history from a linear perspective. It doesn't work that way. You have to account for evolving technologies, socio-religious values, trade patterns and a host of other things.

First, define "kilt". Then define "Celtic". Oh, and for good measure, define "origin".

[Archangel]

I am not sure exactly what you call it... But the animal sign I am associated with, I guess my totemic animal, crap, I don't know enough about this part of my culture, whatever it's called, it's a thunderbird. I believe I was born to be a Trickster, which is a special type of shaman. At least, some of my family seems to think so. (They also think this is why I wear women's clothing )

Anyhoo, back of subject, the Native Americans had a kilt like garmet. It's quite spiffy.

I can see Trickster, that seems to fit you. I don't think there was a real negative connotation, wear it well.

Most cultures had a kilt like garment. This is why this kind of post gets so repititious. First define "kilt", define "male skirt like garment"; research history of clothing; argue historical definitions, religious implications, people migrations, cultural borrowing, cultural memory; study history of manufacturing processes, dyes, weaving; separate modern fantasy from historical reality; research, build a library, visit one, use internal search features on the board; etc, etc, etc. Then within a week do it all over again.

but, learning is fun, tell me more about this Native American garment, please.