Scottish names vs. English or Irish

[Andrew Breecher]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Andrew.

[jfellrath]

I'm always fascinated by cultures that use the father's (or mother's) name in the next generation's name. Mac * in Gaelic-speaking lands, -son and -dóttir in Iceland, and so on. Unfortunately my father's name doesn't ring true with either of those systems (Andrew MacJerry (Andrew O'Raymond), or Andrew Jerryson). Are there any other systems like that still in use these days?

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

[Doc Hudson]

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

[macwilkin]

I remember hearing Dr. Curt Porter in a Russian History class talking about this years ago. He spoke of the widespread problem of illegitamacy during and shortly after the "Great Patriotic War", known elsewhere as World War II. And owing to Russian custom, a patronymic was required. Most of the got stuck with Ivanovich or Ivanova (for son or daughter of Ivan) as a patronymic.

Dr. Porter said it was almost as if some powerful and potent Ivan Ivanovich was striding across the land impregnating Russian girls right, left and center.

Funny the things that stick in theback of your mind for nearly 30 years and leap to the surface with just little nudge.

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

When I attempted to read "Doctor Zhivago" (I never finished it), I had to make a "crib sheet" of all of the character's names, nicknames, etc.

Cheers,

Todd

[An t-Ileach]

Wasn't the original steward a Breton/Norman -or perhaps a Fleming - called FitzAlan?

[Cawdorian]

The original Stewart was Fitz Alan whose father was Fitz Walter. (I'm quoting this from memory so don't hold me to it.) I'll have to look when I get home to be sure I am correct.

Jim

[macwilkin]

The original Stewart was Fitz Alan whose father was Fitz Walter. (I'm quoting this from memory so don't hold me to it.) I'll have to look when I get home to be sure I am correct.

Jim

The prefix "Fitz" is actually a Norman term for "son of" -- That is why you have many Irish surnames like Fitzgerald, Fitzpatrick, FitzWilliam, etc., because the Normans were "invited" to Ireland in 1169 and were soon assimilated into Irish society. The Anglo-Normans also moved to Scotland, and some of the most famous Scottish names -- Bruce, Hay, Grant, etc. are actually Norman in origin.

My clan loyalty is to the Cummings (originally spelled "Comyn"), who were Anglo-Normans from the border between Normandy and Flanders.

Cheers,

Todd

[jfellrath]

BTW, the patronymic is more of a middle name than a last name. The Russians use ordinary family names, the patronymic just identifies who the father is. For example Vassily Ivanovich Zhukov's son Andre's full name would be Andre Vassilivich Zhukov.

Thanks, Doc. I knew I was remembering that from somewhere. I think I actually recalled it from a Tom Clancy novel - when Jack Ryan's Soviet Counterpart would refer to him as Ivan Emmetovich.

[Ranald]

Chap, hi there, do yourself a favour if you've into name history get the book the Surnames of Scotland by George F.Black, much of what you need to know is in there.I got the book and as well as Mc and Mac also the S taged on the end of ones name can also mean son of.
Best of luck.

[Andrew Breecher]

Possibly the Russians... perhaps not formally, as your last name is always your father's first name plus "ovitch" but as a nickname/friendly name.

Ah, thank you. I had heard of the Russian method, but had forgotten it.

The prefix "Fitz" is actually a Norman term for "son of" -- That is why you have many Irish surnames like Fitzgerald, Fitzpatrick, FitzWilliam, etc., because the Normans were "invited" to Ireland in 1169 and were soon assimilated into Irish society. The Anglo-Normans also moved to Scotland, and some of the most famous Scottish names -- Bruce, Hay, Grant, etc. are actually Norman in origin.

My family's Irish name Bennett is probably from the French Benoit.

Also don't forget that folks Americanize their names_ Sean vs Shawn, Shevonne vs Siobhan, etc- IIRC, it was common practice to immigrant officers here to make up a name spelling when pressed for time or faced with someone they couldn't understand well.

My forefather Johann Brücher, one of many German immigrants living in Wisconsin, enlisted in the Civil War. The enlisting officer couldn't figure out his German name, so he became John Breecher in official paperwork.

Andrew.