Bravura!

[macwilkin]

I agree. I remember a certain dinner party where the Douglases were served the head of a bull and then mercilessly slaughtered. It truly was bad on both sides.

That said, we still have a lasting legacy of oppression that is still in place today.

I will not argue the fact that the English-Scottish relationship has not always been equal or fair; far from it. But "oppression" in the past is not a justification for vilifying an entire nationality in the present.

T.

[Dreadbelly]

I will not argue the fact that the English-Scottish relationship has not always been equal or fair; far from it. But "oppression" in the past is not a justification for vilifying an entire nationality in the present.

T.

And I would agree to that statement. However, that "oppression" is still firmly in place today, in this modern age.

I love the people... Dislike the actions. I bear no malice to any single English person. I do in fact, bear a great deal of malice to any system of oppression. There is a difference. I do not seek to make the English people out as villians. Most are just that. People. Going about their daily lives. The sort of oppression that many of those people live under leaves me a little hot under the collar.

I hope this clears up my stance a bit.

And I am more than glad to clarify my position with you. There are many souls in the world, but very few are as open to discusion about opposing viewpoints as you are Todd.

**Tips tam**

[Ranald]

Motorman, don't get me wrong,mysef ( a viking re-enactor) and many many others would love to prove the origins of the kilt to the dark ages, but simple put there is no evidence to support this claim.
A couple of quotes from two dictionaries will not cut it, sorry,but what will is arcealogical evidence (burial mound),a carving (wood or stone) a scroll or book like find ( book of Kells).
Do you not think that when the vikings attacked the monks on Iona that in their writtings after the event they would miss barbarians in kilts with bare legs, I think not.
Please don't take this idea you have as read, do your homework, you have to look in several resources before it would be taken as factual.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes!

[Doc Hudson]

If you accuse me of simply pouring gas on the fire, I really can't deny it. But here goes anyway.

Not that I give their idea much more credence than you do, Jarls of Lochlann attributes their kilt designs to Viking influence, and mention that the very word kilt comes from the Old Norse kjalt. http://www.thejarlsoflochlann.com/Kilts/special.html

Also at Jarls of Lochlann, they offer for sale a Book/CD_Rom set of Viking designs described as:

bold, fanciful designs featured here have been adapted from authentic Viking metalwork, textiles, stone carvings, and ceramics. Depicted are interwoven motifs reminiscent of Celtic art, real and mythological creatures, dragon-slaying heroes on horseback, and much more.

The cover is illustrated with some of the designs, the one at the bottom, left of center is a warrior wearing some sort of skirt-like garment. (Though to tell the truth, the image looks more like a Mayan or Aztec carving to me rather than a Scandinavian.)

Let's face it, every culture had a skirt-like garment for men at some point in time. The kilt as we know it today is of Scottish origin, but we can not be certain of it's ancestry. So if you are going to fault Motorman's scholarship, you will have to challenge the assertation of Jarls of Lochlann as well.

Care to give it a whirl?

[Archangel]

If you accuse me of simply pouring gas on the fire, I really can't deny it. But here goes anyway.

Not that I give their idea much more credence than you do, Jarls of Lochlann attributes their kilt designs to Viking influence, and mention that the very word kilt comes from the Old Norse kjalt. http://www.thejarlsoflochlann.com/Kilts/special.html

Also at Jarls of Lochlann, they offer for sale a Book/CD_Rom set of Viking designs described as:
The cover is illustrated with some of the designs, the one at the bottom, left of center is a warrior wearing some sort of skirt-like garment. (Though to tell the truth, the image looks more like a Mayan or Aztec carving to me rather than a Scandinavian.)

Let's face it, every culture had a skirt-like garment for men at some point in time. The kilt as we know it today is of Scottish origin, but we can not be certain of it's ancestry. So if you are going to fault Motorman's scholarship, you will have to challenge the assertation of Jarls of Lochlann as well.

Care to give it a whirl?

I'm easy, I can fault them, what do you want me to do now?
What standard are you looking for in a historical discussion? We are not likely to conjure up a long dead viking who will state, "I never wore a skirt but my wife wears a pleated dress"

Don't know how far the mod will let us go off-topic, but if I remember from this morning, it's now on another thread.

The cd-rom is nice, my wife uses the Celtic one for her writing, but that only establishes cultural migration. Same as the word itself, basically any word that has k or an sk start is from Viking. Nobody's even sure where the word Viking comes from, one position is that it is the same root as by in by-law.

What was the topic again? Oh, yeah, noble barbarians or civilized wimp: Rousseau covered it years ago.

[Ranald]

[QUOTE=Archangel] Nobody's even sure where the word Viking comes from, one position is that it is the same root as by in by-law.

It is believed by the uk viking re-enactment society the word comes from -to go a viking ( sounds like veeking) which back in those days to go a viking was a profession (yes you read it right) back then only the eldest son got anything when the old man passed over, but what about his other sons.Well he had to scrap a living elsewhere and there was rich pickings to be had abroad.Small amounts of gold and lots of silver not to mention jewels and slaves.

[Dreadbelly]

Vikings wore dreadlocks too!

The salty sea is good for locks. Makes them shrink up and get all tight.

Sorry. Back on topic quick, before somebody notices. You never saw me here.

[Archangel]

[QUOTE=Ranald]

Nobody's even sure where the word Viking comes from, one position is that it is the same root as by in by-law.

It is believed by the uk viking re-enactment society the word comes from -to go a viking ( sounds like veeking) which back in those days to go a viking was a profession (yes you read it right) back then only the eldest son got anything when the old man passed over, but what about his other sons.Well he had to scrap a living elsewhere and there was rich pickings to be had abroad.Small amounts of gold and lots of silver not to mention jewels and slaves.

I think I'm quoting Thor Heyardahl for that one, no matter. I'm not challenging your statement, I think that's one of the three most recognized/legitimate theories. The third is that it is a Russian term for traveller or something. I'd have to look it up to be sure.