Is Black Watch a "Generic" Tartan?

[Sir Robert]

There are a lot of Gordon and Black Watch kilts for sale at great prices, I have a Gordon which not only is "gereric" but also my clan so that is cool but is the Black Watch "generic" or is it someone's clan tartan?

[macwilkin]

There are a lot of Gordon and Black Watch kilts for sale at great prices, I have a Gordon which not only is "gereric" but also my clan so that is cool but is the Black Watch "generic" or is it someone's clan tartan?

How much time do you have? :mrgreen:

Technically, the Black Watch (always two words) tartan is actually known as "Government Sett" and is a military tartan, although the tartan is essentially the same as the Campbell Old Sett, since the Campbells played a hand in the raising of the regiment back in the 1730's. The Government sett is "universal" in the fact that at one time, the British Army wanted to have all Scottish regiments wear it, rather than the individual regimental tartans.

Nowadays the Black Watch is readily available for civilian wear, but its origins are military.

It is interesting to note that three military tartans, worn by Highland Regiments, have now become standard clan tartans: the Gordon, Mackenzie of Seaforth and the Cameron of Erracht.

Matt, help me on this -- I haven't had my coffee yet! ;)

T.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I love reading the posts from The Professor (Todd).:-)

The ONLY thing to consider with the Black Watch tartan is where you're going to wear it. It's not an Irish tartan, so don't wear it in "strict" Irish situations. Other than that, 90% of the people that see it won't even know what it is.

It's up to you and your knowledge as to whether or not to get it. It's nice to see that you asked first!

"Know Your Tartan"

[Cawdorian]

One of the four Campbell tartans recognized by the Clan Chief is the Campbell "Ancient" which is basically a Black Watch "Ancient."

Jim

[Bob C]

The ONLY thing to consider with the Black Watch tartan is where you're going to wear it. It's not an Irish tartan, so don't wear it in "strict" Irish situations.

It goes deeper than that. The Black Watch is actually offensive to some Irish nationalists because of conflicts that occurred while members of that regiment were stationed in Northern Ireland.

[bubba]

The ONLY thing to consider with the Black Watch tartan is where you're going to wear it. It's not an Irish tartan, so don't wear it in "strict" Irish situations. Other than that, 90% of the people that see it won't even know what it is.

then again, the Black Watch DOES look good worn with a red shirt. (ducks and runs for cover)

[Dreadbelly]

There are quite a few Irish round here. And there is Connolly's Irish Pub. I am pretty sure if I walked in there wearing Blackwatch, I wouldn't walk back out again.

Already had one encounter wearing Black Watch SWHW with somebody that knew what tartan it was and became quite irate that I was wearing it. I was able to talk him out of it. Well, there was a second encounter, but it wasn't bad. Wasn't angry. Much. Somebody I know from an AA meeting, he's Irish, and he didn't much care for Black Watch. I don't know enough about the hows or whys to say much else.

It really does stir emotions in some people, both good and bad.

I suspect that if I were to get an Irish National tartan kilt it would be well received.

[macwilkin]

Let me try to get the thread back on topic now, and return to the original question about the Government sett being a "clan tartan" -- The Clan Grant Society UK has an interesting article about the Black Watch tartan here:

http://www.clangrant.org/tartan.php

The Grant Society of the US states that the BW is the hunting tartan of the Grants:

The Black Watch - Grant "Hunting"
The "Black Watch" sett is the Grant "Hunting" tartan. "Hunting" tartans supposedly developed as alternate tartan setts for the clans, with darker colors, and worn while "hunting" because it acted as a better camouflage outdoors (the belief being that the standard or "dress" tartan setts, with brighter colors, would scare off their quary).

The Black Watch tartan is the Grant "Hunting" tartan due to our clans long association with this regiment. The original Black Watch regiments enlisted men from Clan Grant, and it is said that this tartan was originally a Grant tartan before being adopted as the official tartan of the regiment. There are many clans, such as the Campbells, whose standard tartan is a variation of the Black Watch tartan (typically with lighter colors, an extra stripe, or a light stripe somewhere in the sett, etc).

-- http://www.clangrant-us.org/tartans.htm

Cheers,

Todd

[MacConnachie]

It goes deeper than that. The Black Watch is actually offensive to some Irish nationalists because of conflicts that occurred while members of that regiment were stationed in Northern Ireland.

My understanding of the situation, although limited, was that the Black Watch government tartan was worn by the "Black and Tans," amongst others. The Black and Tans were "beasts of the lowest degree," according to the eyewitness descriptions of their activities on behalf of the British crown in pre-republic Ireland in the years between the end of WWI and the partition of Ireland. They were very greatly despised. A friend of mine who was first in Ireland in the 1970's said that an aunt of his - whose family members remained there as contrasted with thousands who emigrated to North America during those immediate pre-Republic days - would get absolutely flintey-eyed when speaking about the Black and Tans' depredations at a time when she would have been a teenager.

From a popular song of an early era of the 20th Century:
"Come on out ye Black and Tans
Come and fight me, like a man
Show your wife how you won medals
Down in Flanders
Tell her how the IRA
Made you run, like Hell, away
From the green and lovely lanes
Of Killeshandra"

There are still Irish-Americans in our region who cringe or turn away when they see anyone dressed in Black Watch. It's interesting that this is the tartan of choice for an Ancient Order of Hibernians pipe band in a nearby town. Their response to the Black and Tans debate? Many a brave Irish lad saw military service in such dress . . .

Mac

[macwilkin]

My understanding of the situation, although limited, was that the Black Watch government tartan was worn by the "Black and Tans," amongst others. The Black and Tans were "beasts of the lowest degree," according to the eyewitness descriptions of their activities on behalf of the British crown in pre-republic Ireland in the years between the end of WWI and the partition of Ireland. They were very greatly despised. A friend of mine who was first in Ireland in the 1970's said that an aunt of his - whose family members remained there as contrasted with thousands who emigrated to North America during those immediate pre-Republic days - would get absolutely flintey-eyed when speaking about the Black and Tans' depredations at a time when she would have been a teenager.

From a popular song of an early era of the 20th Century:
"Come on out ye Black and Tans
Come and fight me, like a man
Show your wife how you won medals
Down in Flanders
Tell her how the IRA
Made you run, like Hell, away
From the green and lovely lanes
Of Killeshandra"

There are still Irish-Americans in our region who cringe or turn away when they see anyone dressed in Black Watch. It's interesting that this is the tartan of choice for an Ancient Order of Hibernians pipe band in a nearby town. Their response to the Black and Tans debate? Many a brave Irish lad saw military service in such dress . . .

Mac

Mac,

the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are two different things all together. The Black Watch, the Royal Highland Regiment, is a regiment of the British Army. The "Black & Tans" were part of the old Royal Irish Constabulary and were recruited during the Anglo-Irish War of 1919-1922, mostly from out-of-work First World War veterans in the UK. The Tans and the Auxillaries, or "Auxies" (another auxillary police force of the RIC) were NOT British soldiers, but para-military police.

Neither the Tans nor the Auxies wore kilts or tartan, although they did wear khaki balmorals. Their name came from their uniform, which was a mixture of army khaki and RIC uniforms, which prompted the Irish to nickname them after a famous breed of hunting hound, a "black and tan".

I can understand the confusion of the two because of the similarity of names, but again, the Black and Tans and the Black Watch are not the same.

Regards,

Todd