Devil's Advocate!

[An t-Ileach]

A Sheumais,

Well, Devil's Advocate, If you're referring to the "Bravura" thread, I must say that I agreed with you. I was going to post something supportive, but I got side-tracked.

The clansmen were warrior farmers or warrior fishermen, and "nice" and "not nice" depending on who they were dealing with; but they were in any case hard men (and women) coming from a hard environment - especially after the progressive destruction of their economy from the 16th Century onwards. The film "Rob Roy" gave a fair insight into the life.

An historian friend of mine, James Dickie, tells that the British learned how to "deal" with tribal peoples by fighting the clansmen of Scotland. You drew a parallel with the Frontier - it's hardly surprising therefore that the Highlanders serving in India (even in the "civil") identified more with the hillmen than the plainsmen - Pathans, Baluchis, Gurkhas, etc.

I think that it is essential to look back to where we came from - and the source of the kilts and their furniture - in order to draw inspriation for our modern expressions of them. As the saying goes cuimhnich air na daoine a dh'thainig thu ("remember the men from whom you came").

It's great that the kilt is being adopted as effectively the national dress of Scotland - even if very unhistorically in many cases - and that more and more people are wearing it (even the filleadh mor) in everyday life, even down south among the Sassanachs.

So, if you feal that you've become the Forums "Devil's Advocate" I can say that you'll not be lacking supporters.

[Colin]

A Sheumais,

Well, Devil's Advocate, If you're referring to the "Bravura" thread, I must say that I agreed with you. I was going to post something supportive, but I got side-tracked.

The clansmen were warrior farmers or warrior fishermen, and "nice" and "not nice" depending on who they were dealing with; but they were in any case hard men (and women) coming from a hard environment - especially after the progressive destruction of their economy from the 16th Century onwards. The film "Rob Roy" gave a fair insight into the life.

An historian friend of mine, James Dickie, tells that the British learned how to "deal" with tribal peoples by fighting the clansmen of Scotland. You drew a parallel with the Frontier - it's hardly surprising therefore that the Highlanders serving in India (even in the "civil") identified more with the hillmen than the plainsmen - Pathans, Baluchis, Gurkhas, etc.

I think that it is essential to look back to where we came from - and the source of the kilts and their furniture - in order to draw inspriation for our modern expressions of them. As the saying goes cuimhnich air na daoine a dh'thainig thu ("remember the men from whom you came").

It's great that the kilt is being adopted as effectively the national dress of Scotland - even if very unhistorically in many cases - and that more and more people are wearing it (even the filleadh mor) in everyday life, even down south among the Sassanachs.

So, if you feal that you've become the Forums "Devil's Advocate" I can say that you'll not be lacking supporters.

I couldn't agree more. You can count me as one of your supporters as well James. Keep the great posts coming.

[Dreadbelly]

A Sheumais,

Well, Devil's Advocate, If you're referring to the "Bravura" thread, I must say that I agreed with you. I was going to post something supportive, but I got side-tracked.

The clansmen were warrior farmers or warrior fishermen, and "nice" and "not nice" depending on who they were dealing with; but they were in any case hard men (and women) coming from a hard environment - especially after the progressive destruction of their economy from the 16th Century onwards. The film "Rob Roy" gave a fair insight into the life.

An historian friend of mine, James Dickie, tells that the British learned how to "deal" with tribal peoples by fighting the clansmen of Scotland. You drew a parallel with the Frontier - it's hardly surprising therefore that the Highlanders serving in India (even in the "civil") identified more with the hillmen than the plainsmen - Pathans, Baluchis, Gurkhas, etc.

I think that it is essential to look back to where we came from - and the source of the kilts and their furniture - in order to draw inspriation for our modern expressions of them. As the saying goes cuimhnich air na daoine a dh'thainig thu ("remember the men from whom you came").

It's great that the kilt is being adopted as effectively the national dress of Scotland - even if very unhistorically in many cases - and that more and more people are wearing it (even the filleadh mor) in everyday life, even down south among the Sassanachs.

So, if you feal that you've become the Forums "Devil's Advocate" I can say that you'll not be lacking supporters.

This clansman is a warrior cook.

Oh, by the way, all very well said. **Golfclap**

[An t-Ileach]

What's a "golfclap"?

An old friend of mine, some years ago, was a K1 Cook with 45 Commando RM during their deployment in Aden and Borneo in the 60s - he actually was the champion machine gunner and would often (in Aden) spend the nights on ambush duty and the days cooking for his Comapny. Sadly, given 45's base at Arbroath, he wasn't a jock but an Englishman - but a braw lad for a' that!

[Dreadbelly]

What's a "golfclap"?

An old friend of mine, some years ago, was a K1 Cook with 45 Commando RM during their deployment in Aden and Borneo in the 60s - he actually was the champion machine gunner and would often (in Aden) spend the nights on ambush duty and the days cooking for his Comapny. Sadly, given 45's base at Arbroath, he wasn't a jock but an Englishman - but a braw lad for a' that!

A golf clap is a small polite clap of a congratulatory nature. Also for appreciation.

[An t-Ileach]

Gee, thanks, Dread. :-)

[Archangel]

What's a "golfclap"?

An old friend of mine, some years ago, was a K1 Cook with 45 Commando RM during their deployment in Aden and Borneo in the 60s - he actually was the champion machine gunner and would often (in Aden) spend the nights on ambush duty and the days cooking for his Comapny. Sadly, given 45's base at Arbroath, he wasn't a jock but an Englishman - but a braw lad for a' that!

so was my uncle, from Kirkaldy, who disappeared at that time. Resurfaced as a retired British soldier speaking fluent Arabic, reading Arabic newspapers, giving great insight on current events and silence on the last forty years. He's now living in rural England and drives a Lincoln Navigator. Do I want to know the whole story, rumours of SAS and MI5 or 6, oh yeah.


An t-Ileach: did you mean English or British? The essential point is correct and expanded by Greene's Pursuit of Happiness. He develops that account to the occupation of Ireland to the treatment of the colonies of America. It's a good view of where the US came from. It also gives a perspective on the resulting differences that are illustrated in contemporary North and South Iraq. (Mods, let me know if this is too political.) This is a major discussion on the Black Watch sites.

[GMan]

Hey the envelope should be pushed often. That is what makes us better humans.

[Blu (Ontario)]

James,

Since I am the guilty party, for the record I will state that I most certainly intended no offense or disrespect by my "Devils Advocate" remark recently. In fact, James, I like your style and appreciate where you're coming from. While you have not been posting at Xmarks as long as some others, I still consider you one of the senior members here. Your experience, wisdom, and knowledge are a valuable asset to the group and we all benefit from your insightful, albeit sometimes blunt, posts. I admit that I don't place quite as much gravity as others do on certain aspects of kilt and clannishness, but at the same time I feel that it's important that these topics are explored openly... and you are good at doing just that. Now maybe I'm dead wrong here but I imagined that while writing some of your posts you're sporting a devilish grin and a twinkle in your eye... hence my remark. If I am wrong, I apologize to you openly before the group. I say go ahead and "stir the pot" when you think it needs it. But I think we should all guard ourselves against taking some of these issues so seriously that there's no joy left in any of it.

Cheers, all

blu

[An t-Ileach]

...An t-Ileach: did you mean English or British?...

I think that it's difficult to separate the two when related to the subjugation of the Highlands.

Certainly the Lowlanders were collaborating with the English even before King James' defeat by his uncle (King Henry VIII) at the Battle of the Solway Moss in the 1540s in "dealing" with the remains of the rival power base of the Lordship of the Isles; James VI and I was an active hater of Gaelic and the Gaels' way-of-life and tried hard to subvert both; and in the mid-1600s, Argyll, Montrose and others were working with the English after the Union of the Crowns (and the Highlands although a side issue enabled certain favourable pickings).

It was only after the Bishops' War when Montrose became Viceroy of Scotland that he really seems to have become involved with the Highlanders (and he's still refering to them as Irish, even when he's not talking about Colkitto's Irish McDonalds).

During the aftermath of the Jacobite risings of 1714 and 1745, it was the Highlands and Islands (both Loyalists and Jacobites) who suffered - Lowland and English Jacobites got off scot free, more or less. Next year, 2006, sees the 260th anniversary of the passing of the Act banning the tartan and the wearing of the kilt (it doesn't seem to have been implemented seriously for another year), which again affected the Loyalist Gaels as badly as it did the Jacobite.

There's a phrase in Gaelic to refer to the sheer nastiness of many of the policies and postures of the Lowlanders towards the Gaels: mì-rùn mòr nan Gall, "the great malice of the Lowlander".

So, I think that probably I did mean 'British', rather than simply 'English'.