Box and Knife.. Pleats that is

[Freelander Sporrano]

David Whites picture got me thinking.

Which is the older Box or knife pleating ?

Was box pleating only for military use?

If so is there a reason?

Maybe Matt or someone can help me sleep tonight.

[Cawdorian]

Box pleating is the oldest, I am sure Matt can fill us in on the rest of the info.

Jim

[Dreadbelly]

David Whites picture got me thinking.

Which is the older Box or knife pleating ?

Was box pleating only for military use?

If so is there a reason?

Maybe Matt or someone can help me sleep tonight.

There are also rolled pleats, which are frequently used in military kilts.

[David White]

My guess is box-pleating for sewn pleating.
If you look on Matts site he has several examples of surviving box-pleated
kilts. I think one reason for box-pleats is that it takes less clothe.
Clothe then like nowdays was expensive. I believe that the military
used box-pleats for just that reason-costs.

My box-pleated kilt is heavy weight clothe and just about exactally
4 yards.

Anyho, I really like the looks of a box-pleat-you just don't see that many
examples anymore,knife-pleating being the rage. And I like older styles
myself.

dave

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Box pleating is the older form, and no it is not just for military use.

In brief:

When the kilts were first tailored (in the last decade of the eighteenth century), they were box pleated from about 4 yards of cloth. The box peats were relatively wide and were "true" boxes -- that is, no or litte overlap of the cloth on the inside. Military and civilian kilts were pleated this way, military kilts to stripe and civilian kilts to no pattern. By 1820 or so, civilian kilts were also pleated to the stripe.

The first regiment to go to knife pleating was the Gordons, in 1854 (I think that date is correct, it was in the 1850s). By this time the yardage used in the kilt had started to increase (though not to today's 8 yards, probably closer to 5 or 6). With the exess cloth, the box pleated kitls also started to go with narrower pleats, meaning one side of the "box" was much deeper than the other.

By the time you get to the end of the nineteenth century, you have the kilt as we have it today -- about 8 yards of cloth, with knife pleating being the norm. Pleating to the sett was just starting to become the fashion.

Of course, when you get into the twentieth century, pleating to sett would become the norm, though pleating to stripe is still relatively common. The traditional four-yard box pleated kilts pretty much died out until kilt maker and kitl historian Bob Martin revived them in 1983. Since then a few other kilt makers (such as myself) have taken up making them, but they still are not nearly as common as the eight-yard knife pleated kilt we all know and love.

Aye,
Matt

[bubba]

There are also rolled pleats, which are frequently used in military kilts.

I think they probably used stacked rather than rolled pleats. Rolled pleats have somewhat the look of knife pleats while stacked pleats resemble a box pleat in appearance. Have a look. http://costume.dm.net/pleats/

[Freelander Sporrano]

Box pleating is the older form, and no it is not just for military use.

In brief:

When the kilts were first tailored (in the last decade of the eighteenth century), they were box pleated from about 4 yards of cloth. The box peats were relatively wide and were "true" boxes -- that is, no or litte overlap of the cloth on the inside. Military and civilian kilts were pleated this way, military kilts to stripe and civilian kilts to no pattern. By 1820 or so, civilian kilts were also pleated to the stripe.

The first regiment to go to knife pleating was the Gordons, in 1854 (I think that date is correct, it was in the 1850s). By this time the yardage used in the kilt had started to increase (though not to today's 8 yards, probably closer to 5 or 6). With the exess cloth, the box pleated kitls also started to go with narrower pleats, meaning one side of the "box" was much deeper than the other.

By the time you get to the end of the nineteenth century, you have the kilt as we have it today -- about 8 yards of cloth, with knife pleating being the norm. Pleating to the sett was just starting to become the fashion.

Of course, when you get into the twentieth century, pleating to sett would become the norm, though pleating to stripe is still relatively common. The traditional four-yard box pleated kilts pretty much died out until kilt maker and kitl historian Bob Martin revived them in 1983. Since then a few other kilt makers (such as myself) have taken up making them, but they still are not nearly as common as the eight-yard knife pleated kilt we all know and love.

Aye,
Matt

Thanks Matt great answer

So from a kiltmakers POV what is the easier to make box or knife ?

[Bob C]

I couldn't wear a box-pleated kilt. It would look too much like my daughter's cheerleader skirt.

No offense, box-pleat guys.

[Hamish]

Thanks Matt great answer

So from a kiltmakers POV what is the easier to make box or knife ?

I stand ready to be corrected, David, but I'd say the answer is "knife". I've talked about this with several commercial traditional Scottish kiltmakers and, as one, they are agreed that box-pleating is too time consuming to be offered to their clients. In my book, time-consuming = difficult!

Do our in-house kiltmakers agree?

[Hamish]

I couldn't wear a box-pleated kilt. It would look too much like my daughter's cheerleader skirt.

No offense, box-pleat guys.

I like the look of them, Bob, but they don't have the wonderful 'swing factor' of a knife-pleated, heavy 8 yarder!

In fact, I still have to make up my mind about a tartan for the one I'll be asking Matt to make! The one he made for me in grey Harris tweed, is great as an historical representation, and I am thrilled to have it in my 'Kollection', but I find it somewhat difficult to wear out and about in this modern age because it DOES look sk--ty to the uninitiated!! No offense, Matt. I WILL make a decision soon.