Clansman

[macwilkin]

Bubba's not wrong about the result - pretty much anyone being admitted to a clan society - but I think he's being harsh about the motive.

I don't think it's as much about the cash as it is about the warm bodies. Groups of all sorts are having trouble holding onto members. They hesitate to send eager "recruits" away.

I'm wary of the connection of septs to clans, though. One clan society in the U.S. has long claimed my family as a sept, though the clan in the U.K does not and I have seen no evidence of a connection. That's why I chose a district tartan when I bought my tank, rather than blindly accept what was listed in "A Tartan for Me."

We're actually listed as an armigerous clan, though we have had no chief in few centuries. Where do I apply for the job? :grin:

Most folks who are knowledgeable about tartans and that ilk will worn folks to be very cautious when dealing with the sept system -- see Charles MacKinnon's "Scottish Highlanders" for a good basic look at the flaws behind it. Good genealogical research is always preferrable.

Bob, like you, I promote the idea of district tartans, even over sept lists at times -- a nice alternative, and a custom that is older than some wish to acknowledge.

It is difficult to retain members in any organization these days -- modern society has far too many distractions -- several organizations I belong are hurting. The loyal 20% will always be there, but it's not getting any easier.

T.

[macwilkin]

Ok, when I opened this thread I half expected to see something about the guys in the pointed white hats. Gotta watch the terms you use both between countries and even in parts of the same country. Clansman is a pretty dirty word around here.

But isn't that spelled Klansman, Mike? ;)

As to the the discussion as to the status of clans today I offer this. My experience with the Clan Organizations in Scotland and the UK is very limited. Here in America My experience with most (not all) of the Clans I have delt with have been most unpleasant. Why I always end up talking to the north end of a south bound horse is beyond me but that is the way it seems. Usually the conversation goes something along the lines of...

Me "Yes sir/ma'am, I would like to know something of your organization. I am looking at becoming a member."

Them "Very good! What is your name and where are you from?"

Me "I am a Macummphermpuff from the line of Macrazzaldazzle and our family seat is in the highland area of TN and NC."

Them "Oh, (pause) an ulster."

Me (lighthearted) "Well we all had to start somewhere."

Them (sounding scornful) "Yes I suppose you did."

Me (picking up on the unsaid message) "Yep and you can just kiss my ulster..." (I may be many things but subtle isn't one I've been accused of recently)

Now I have been in customer service for most of my life and retail/service industry since I retired from the Navy. This is not the way you bring in money so I got a feeling that isn't it. At least not with the ones I had dealings with.

Is it any wonder I contacted the Chattan Society? They were more than happy to talk to a member of a once allied clan.

Mike

You wouldn't get that kind of welcome at my Clan Cumming tent, Mike, since I have some Ulster in me myself! :mrgreen:

I've run into that too, and they're just wrong and rude. They tend to forget the ancient right of Hospitality that was so honoured in the Highlands.

Cheers,

Todd

[An t-Ileach]

The Irish-Scots thing is problematic; but when it involves Ulster, then the "Clan authorities" are, I think, showing their ignorance.

On the one hand there's, for example, the Kennedys - a Lowland clan from the Glasgow-Galloway area in Scotland, and an Irish clan, mostly from Kerry (I think, anyway that's where an aunt of mine came from). In this case there's prbabaly no connection other than naming after some bloke called Coinnich.

Yet on the other hand, there're all those Islanders - MacDonalds, MacNeills, MacDougalls, Scotts, MacKenzies, et al (and even some coastal mainlanders like Campbells) who travelled quite often to Ulster and Donegal. It wasn't so long ago that people from Islay would do their big shopping in Belfast - it's only 20 or so miles away by boat, and much easier to get to than Glasgow.

And in the way of things there were intermarriages, and cross settling in Antrim, etc. Look at Colkitto - Montrose's Irish lieutenant: he and his people were MacDonalds from Ulster. (Actually the Irish Gaelic spoken in Donegal is closer to the Gaelic of the Islands than it is to the (official) Munster Gaelic of the Republic).

The Clan Donald Society sensibly lists the Irish MacDonalds as part of the Clan.

[James]

It's all a bit like running a dance in a minefield: never a dull moment!

A part of the problem is that chiefs and the secretaries of clans/societies change: so there is a continual drift from hard to soft line, and vice versa.

Just as this or that group will have an approach which might be connected to their need for members.

Too over the years kilt makers with an urge to sell their wares have made all sorts of 'interesting' connections twixt name and clan/sept. Nor can the growth of non-highland clans be ignored.

In addition over the years all sorts of lists have been produced of varying reliability.

Whilst this or that authority might be saying one thing, yet what is being said on the ground is another.

Too the attitudes of people like myself are strongly influenced by the people we came into contact in our younger years: attitudes which might not be replicated today.

All this has lead to a situation where it is just about possible to find any answer you want. A great approach-decide on an answer and then seek validation for it: where have I heard that one before?

Possibly the letters in the Scots Magazine of a couple of months ago will well indicate the various approaches, and some of the present views.

James

[highlander_Daz]

Surnames are a very unreliable way of establishing a clan connection, unless you are prepared to take on some serious research - names would change on a regular basis.

howver if your lucky enough to have military in your family it makes things much easier.

i dont remember ever seeing anyone in pointed hoods in Scotland. Although the burning of a cross was once a sign of peril or a rallying symbol but normally called a fire cross.

[Colin]

Ok, when I opened this thread I half expected to see something about the guys in the pointed white hats. Gotta watch the terms you use both between countries and even in parts of the same country. Clansman is a pretty dirty word around here.

Huh? why on a kilt forum (Scottish heritage based) would anyone associate a terrorist group rather than the true meaning of the word? Besides it's spelt with a "C" not a "K". Let's not let a group of ignorant rednecks steal more of our history. ;-)

[Colin]

You wouldn't get that kind of welcome at my Clan Cumming tent, Mike, since I have some Ulster in me myself! :mrgreen:

I've run into that too, and they're just wrong and rude. They tend to forget the ancient right of Hospitality that was so honoured in the Highlands.

Cheers,

Todd

My first exposure to the Clan MacKenzie society was some prat manning the tent at the Highland Games a few years ago. He had no interest in my questions (or working in general) and was put off when he found out the MacKenzie was on my mother's side. Luckily a few years later I looked up the Clan Mackenzie Society of North America- Canadian Chapter and exchanged emails with the gentleman that actually runs the society. I was treated with great respect and was welcomed into the fold with open arms.

I don't mind the $20 annual fee as it goes directly to the restoration of the Clan MacKenzie ancesteral home in Scotland. My society is actually a registered charity, so the funds go to where they say they are going.

Had a only let my experience with *****-for-brains be my only introduction the my Clan's (one of my clans anyway) society, I would have never joined or taken an interest. I still hear nothing about the goings on in B.C., but that is because the B.C liason is Mr. Prat.

I say join your societies (father's, mother's, grandparents, etc) and help keep that feeling of clansman (note with a "C") alive.

[Jerry]

If you have doubts, do what I did. Write or Email the Clan Chief or association and ask for permission to become a member of the clan or to wear their tartan. I did this with both clan Macneil and The House of Gordon. My father's side of the family are McNeills from Ulster and my mother's family are Gordons. Both clans gave me permission and pretty much said anyone may become a member, and wear their tartan. I replied to both, Thanking them and saying that I respected their traditions and would not wear a their tartan if they didn't think my family connections were close enough. I have been a member of Clan macneil for a while, but I am thinking of joining the house of Gordon. There is nothing wrong with Clan Macneil, but they are never in my area. The house of Gordon chapter is local for me and I would be able to interact with other Gortdon members

[Ranald]

I have to say a very heart felt thankyou to all those that have replied to the thread.
Now I don't know if there will be anymore entries but I'm sure they'll be just as informative as the ones already posted.
I have to tell you when I joined this forum I did so for a bit of fun, you know to pass some time away, but my time here so far has given me a sense of pride and belonging.So hence the 'Clan' post, now I would love to join a clan and will do so when I find 'the one' but at the moment I'm still looking.
Sent with best wishes
Richard Duncan Reynolds.

[bubba]

now I would love to join a clan and will do so when I find 'the one' but at the moment I'm still looking.
Sent with best wishes
Richard Duncan Reynolds.

You already belong to Clan X Marks, it don't get any better than this.