Where's the love..

[motorman4life]

Do not email the mods wanting the rules changed when they are posted.

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

[Dreadbelly]

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

**Sigh**

So it begins.

This isn't worth it. Nothing will be changed because of this. If anything, control will only be tightened to deal with perceived threats.

All this talk makes me sad.

[Doc Hudson]

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial. I don't get it. This is clearly not a board of the kilt wearers, by the kilt wearers and for the kilt wearers, is it? Where's the love? Is this a knee-jerk response to perceived chaos and anarchy? I didn't see any bloodshed, Nelson.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is?

lib·er·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-t) n. pl. lib·er·ties
1) The condition of being free from restriction or control.
2) The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
3) The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom.
4) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
5) A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

If you are for liberty and (as per #2 above) liberty is the right of free expresson, wouldn't the deleting of G-rated posts and unnecessary restriction of those expressing their thoughful opinion be against liberty? I didn't see anything wrong with the thread. Open communication and considered responses... what's wrong with that? It is not TMac's fault that Bear did not chose to respond to his post.

And, refusing to accept any input from the lowly minions.. nice touch.
Go ahead and delete this post in the name of liberty.

Now you are starting to understand my annoyance.

And Dr. Douglas is probably correct. When people in authority are accused of heavy-handedness, the hand almost invariably becomes heavier.

[Dreadbelly]

Now you are starting to understand my annoyance.

And Dr. Douglas is probably correct. When people in authority are accused of heavy-handedness, the hand almost invariably becomes heavier.

Yes. This creates a devide. An "Us vs Them."

I have been just dying to say something, it's like an itch for me. And, well, I have just left it alone. It would do me no good. It would either be deleted, ignored, get me banned, which would be horrible because I really do care about a lot of the people here and I would go nuts not being able to talk to them, or it would be totally ignored because people would be to afraid to get on the bandwagon out of fear of their own forum membership.

The only reason I have held my own tongue lately on stating my feelings is that my sense of friendship over-rides my self of defiance.

I don't want to rock the boat any more than I have to because the consequences would be unbearable. Late at night, or when the pain burns a little to bright for me to deal with, I turn to forums and communications online to take my mind off of things. It keeps me from turning to chemical dependancy, drinking, and taking painkillers.

[motorman4life]

I have been just dying to say something, it's like an itch for me. And, well, I have just left it alone. It would do me no good. It would either be deleted, ignored, get me banned, which would be horrible... because people would be to afraid to get on the bandwagon out of fear of their own forum membership.

That is my point. My hope is that pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to be Pro Libertate (For Liberty) and taking such a heavy-handed approach may give pause.

Yes, Doc is right.. the usual reaction is the “iron fist” approach. But, I am hoping that someone that is truly "for liberty" might consider their response and act in a judicious and reasonable manner. There comes a time when you have to decide if your sig is a catchy/cool “sound bite” or something you take seriously and want to live by. Freedom is not an easy mantle to carry, particularly when you are in a position of power and control.

I love this board and the people here. I really appreciate the participation by various makers and enthusiasts. I don’t think Dreadbelly, Doc or I should have to hold our tongue out of fear of getting banned from the board for expressing our opinions in a thoughtful and appropriate manner.

I don’t want to see this become a brawl-board with chaos, flames and constant ranting. On the same token, it should be a place where everyone can communicate openly and give constructive criticism or on-topic feedback without fear of retaliation.

Freedom is merely a concept until it is exercised.

[Dreadbelly]

That is my point. My hope is that pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to be Pro Libertate (For Liberty) and taking such a heavy-handed approach may give pause.

Yes, Doc is right.. the usual reaction is the “iron fist” approach. But, I am hoping that someone that is truly "for liberty" might consider their response and act in a judicious and reasonable manner. There comes a time when you have to decide if your sig is a catchy/cool “sound bite” or something you take seriously and want to live by. Freedom is not an easy mantle to carry, particularly when you are in a position of power and control.

I love this board and the people here. I really appreciate the participation by various makers and enthusiasts. I don’t think Dreadbelly, Doc or I should have to hold our tongue out of fear of getting banned from the board for expressing our opinions in a thoughtful and appropriate manner.

I don’t want to see this become a brawl-board with chaos, flames and constant ranting. On the same token, it should be a place where everyone can communicate openly and give constructive criticism or on-topic feedback without fear of retaliation.

Freedom is merely a concept until it is exercised.

In my best efforts to remain Swiss, I should point out that tweaking somebody's nose over a signature is, well, something of a personal attack. Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low. No offense meant. But there is a moral obligation here to keep our own motivations and intentions in check and make sure that we are doing the right thing, in the right way.

Is this really how we want to bring about change?

[motorman4life]

Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low.

I understand where you are coming from, Dread. And, if people here did not have to live in fear of getting banned or have their posts deleted for simply expressing their opinion, I really would not have made a peep.

I must admit, I was alarmed to see TMac’s thread deleted, but I truly became concerned when I saw Nelson’s response to Magnus. I am a huge proponent of freedom and I hate to see unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics being used by moderators. I moderate many groups and forums in various places on the web and as much as I may have been tempted to write what Nelson wrote, in situations far worse, I have not succumbed. To see him do so was, well, disappointing. Moreover, your subsequent response and honest admission that you were afraid to post openly on this board out of fear of heavy-handed retaliation has reinforced my opinion.

As for bringing about change.. I had thought things really seemed to be running fine. It seems pretty obvious that Nelson is brining about the changes here, not me. I do not see pointing out blatant hypocrisy as a personal attack. If you do, that is unfortunate.

As for “taking someone to task over a few words, no matter the level of truth..” stooping low? Dread, aren’t you taking me to task over a few words in your post? I see your response as constructive criticism.. not stooping low. I would hope you could grant me the same leeway.

Lastly, I believe my intentions and motivations are no different that yours. I want to see this board thrive and I want to ensure the same level of open communication and exchange of ideas that it has had in the past, regardless of ad revenue and personal relationships between moderators and kilt makers or advertisers. I would also like to think that all contributors here would be free to give input to moderators that it would be reviewed and considered. I understand this site is somewhat of a commercial enterrprise, but why have a review forum if people cannot comment on the reviews?

[Dreadbelly]

I understand where you are coming from, Dread. And, if people here did not have to live in fear of getting banned or have their posts deleted for simply expressing their opinion, I really would not have made a peep.

I must admit, I was alarmed to see TMac’s thread deleted, but I truly became concerned when I saw Nelson’s response to Magnus. I am a huge proponent of freedom and I hate to see unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics being used by moderators. I moderate many groups and forums in various places on the web and as much as I may have been tempted to write what Nelson wrote, in situations far worse, I have not succumbed. To see him do so was, well, disappointing. Moreover, your subsequent response and honest admission that you were afraid to post openly on this board out of fear of heavy-handed retaliation has reinforced my opinion.

As for bringing about change.. I had thought things really seemed to be running fine. It seems pretty obvious that Nelson is brining about the changes here, not me. I do not see pointing out blatant hypocrisy as a personal attack. If you do, that is unfortunate.

As for “taking someone to task over a few words, no matter the level of truth..” stooping low? Dread, aren’t you taking me to task over a few words in your post? I see your response as constructive criticism.. not stooping low. I would hope you could grant me the same leeway.

Lastly, I believe my intentions and motivations are no different that yours. I want to see this board thrive and I want to ensure the same level of open communication and exchange of ideas that it has had in the past, regardless of ad revenue and personal relationships between moderators and kilt makers or advertisers. I would also like to think that all contributors here would be free to give input to moderators that it would be reviewed and considered. I understand this site is somewhat of a commercial enterrprise, but why have a review forum if people cannot comment on the reviews?

I take you to task over nothing. I only ask that we all keep our morals intact. I am trying to make sure that everything stays on the level so that nobody has any reason to return fire. In a sense, I was trying to cover your ****.

I must have missed what was said to Magnus. Was it all deleted? What happened?

Like it or not, this is bound to make somebody rather angry. And the fewer reasons we give to delete it the better chance it has of surviving.

With out naming names, I pointed out to a mod some obvious points of favouritism going on. How some folk could get away with all kinds of things, off topic remarks, could go on about religion, etc. And they never get deleted. Yet I do. In a recent thread about kilts and pants and such, somebody made a comment about scripture and pants. And I remarked that it was a religion I could get behind. My post was deleted. Even though I had made no actual religious remarks. Yet, from some of our "honoured" members, actual bible verses and such were being quoted and tossed back and forth, and those posts were not deleted. A great deal of religion was being discussed by quite a few people... In depth. And those posts were left alone. But mine, mine was targeted and deleted even though nothing important was actually said. Anyhoo, before this particular topic even came to be, I had my post on dreams deleted. And when I pointed out the obvious fact that there was some serious favouritism going on, all I got was one very patronising response. I was pretty pissed off. Hell, I am still pissed off. I have pointed out a couple of times now that there are some people here for which the rules do not apply. And me mentioning that will probably get this thread nuked.

I am not trying to start anything. I am however, offering my two pence.

I think I can hear the thin ice cracking. I hope I am wrong.

[Dreadbelly]

Oh. If I suddenly disapear and don't show up any more, it was nice knowing all of you. Much love for everybody. It was a pleasure knowing all of you. Even those of you that I disagreed with. It was most pleasant having debate and tossing the issues around well educated highly opinionated people. Inspite of what some might think, I hold a lot of respect for the lot of you.

If I do get canned, mayhap I will check in from time to time from the library computers or other points of public access where I will not have to worry about having my IP blocked.

Sorry, I don't mean to be the voice of gloom, but I have a bad feeling about this. I have been repeatedly singled out in the past, my threads have been deleted, I have received all kinds of warnings for only doing what so many others around here do as well.

I mean no disrespect but saying what little I have said has made me most nervous.

[bear]

Here's my opinion:

This site is a commercial site. It was created to make money.
You can't go into a clothing store and swear, tell people off, or argue, without getting tossed out of the store.
Why should it be different here?

You can talk about changing the site all you like but it ain't gonna happen.
As a commercial site, it is imperative that the forum be a place that is peaceful, respectful, and helpful to new kilted guys. The more members and hits there are, the more Hank can ask for advertising and the more stuff he sells through Highland Tide.

In short, as much as some would like this place to be a social club for kilt wearers, it was started as a commercial venture and as it gets more successful, it will lean more to that side of things.
Without the money generating aspects of X Marks The Scot, there would be no social club.
That's business, folks.