Where's the love..

[Dreadbelly]

That is my point. My hope is that pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming to be Pro Libertate (For Liberty) and taking such a heavy-handed approach may give pause.

Yes, Doc is right.. the usual reaction is the “iron fist” approach. But, I am hoping that someone that is truly "for liberty" might consider their response and act in a judicious and reasonable manner. There comes a time when you have to decide if your sig is a catchy/cool “sound bite” or something you take seriously and want to live by. Freedom is not an easy mantle to carry, particularly when you are in a position of power and control.

I love this board and the people here. I really appreciate the participation by various makers and enthusiasts. I don’t think Dreadbelly, Doc or I should have to hold our tongue out of fear of getting banned from the board for expressing our opinions in a thoughtful and appropriate manner.

I don’t want to see this become a brawl-board with chaos, flames and constant ranting. On the same token, it should be a place where everyone can communicate openly and give constructive criticism or on-topic feedback without fear of retaliation.

Freedom is merely a concept until it is exercised.

In my best efforts to remain Swiss, I should point out that tweaking somebody's nose over a signature is, well, something of a personal attack. Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low. No offense meant. But there is a moral obligation here to keep our own motivations and intentions in check and make sure that we are doing the right thing, in the right way.

Is this really how we want to bring about change?

[motorman4life]

Taking somebody to task over a few words, no matter what level of truth, is kind of, well, stooping low.

I understand where you are coming from, Dread. And, if people here did not have to live in fear of getting banned or have their posts deleted for simply expressing their opinion, I really would not have made a peep.

I must admit, I was alarmed to see TMac’s thread deleted, but I truly became concerned when I saw Nelson’s response to Magnus. I am a huge proponent of freedom and I hate to see unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics being used by moderators. I moderate many groups and forums in various places on the web and as much as I may have been tempted to write what Nelson wrote, in situations far worse, I have not succumbed. To see him do so was, well, disappointing. Moreover, your subsequent response and honest admission that you were afraid to post openly on this board out of fear of heavy-handed retaliation has reinforced my opinion.

As for bringing about change.. I had thought things really seemed to be running fine. It seems pretty obvious that Nelson is brining about the changes here, not me. I do not see pointing out blatant hypocrisy as a personal attack. If you do, that is unfortunate.

As for “taking someone to task over a few words, no matter the level of truth..” stooping low? Dread, aren’t you taking me to task over a few words in your post? I see your response as constructive criticism.. not stooping low. I would hope you could grant me the same leeway.

Lastly, I believe my intentions and motivations are no different that yours. I want to see this board thrive and I want to ensure the same level of open communication and exchange of ideas that it has had in the past, regardless of ad revenue and personal relationships between moderators and kilt makers or advertisers. I would also like to think that all contributors here would be free to give input to moderators that it would be reviewed and considered. I understand this site is somewhat of a commercial enterrprise, but why have a review forum if people cannot comment on the reviews?

[Dreadbelly]

I understand where you are coming from, Dread. And, if people here did not have to live in fear of getting banned or have their posts deleted for simply expressing their opinion, I really would not have made a peep.

I must admit, I was alarmed to see TMac’s thread deleted, but I truly became concerned when I saw Nelson’s response to Magnus. I am a huge proponent of freedom and I hate to see unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics being used by moderators. I moderate many groups and forums in various places on the web and as much as I may have been tempted to write what Nelson wrote, in situations far worse, I have not succumbed. To see him do so was, well, disappointing. Moreover, your subsequent response and honest admission that you were afraid to post openly on this board out of fear of heavy-handed retaliation has reinforced my opinion.

As for bringing about change.. I had thought things really seemed to be running fine. It seems pretty obvious that Nelson is brining about the changes here, not me. I do not see pointing out blatant hypocrisy as a personal attack. If you do, that is unfortunate.

As for “taking someone to task over a few words, no matter the level of truth..” stooping low? Dread, aren’t you taking me to task over a few words in your post? I see your response as constructive criticism.. not stooping low. I would hope you could grant me the same leeway.

Lastly, I believe my intentions and motivations are no different that yours. I want to see this board thrive and I want to ensure the same level of open communication and exchange of ideas that it has had in the past, regardless of ad revenue and personal relationships between moderators and kilt makers or advertisers. I would also like to think that all contributors here would be free to give input to moderators that it would be reviewed and considered. I understand this site is somewhat of a commercial enterrprise, but why have a review forum if people cannot comment on the reviews?

I take you to task over nothing. I only ask that we all keep our morals intact. I am trying to make sure that everything stays on the level so that nobody has any reason to return fire. In a sense, I was trying to cover your ****.

I must have missed what was said to Magnus. Was it all deleted? What happened?

Like it or not, this is bound to make somebody rather angry. And the fewer reasons we give to delete it the better chance it has of surviving.

With out naming names, I pointed out to a mod some obvious points of favouritism going on. How some folk could get away with all kinds of things, off topic remarks, could go on about religion, etc. And they never get deleted. Yet I do. In a recent thread about kilts and pants and such, somebody made a comment about scripture and pants. And I remarked that it was a religion I could get behind. My post was deleted. Even though I had made no actual religious remarks. Yet, from some of our "honoured" members, actual bible verses and such were being quoted and tossed back and forth, and those posts were not deleted. A great deal of religion was being discussed by quite a few people... In depth. And those posts were left alone. But mine, mine was targeted and deleted even though nothing important was actually said. Anyhoo, before this particular topic even came to be, I had my post on dreams deleted. And when I pointed out the obvious fact that there was some serious favouritism going on, all I got was one very patronising response. I was pretty pissed off. Hell, I am still pissed off. I have pointed out a couple of times now that there are some people here for which the rules do not apply. And me mentioning that will probably get this thread nuked.

I am not trying to start anything. I am however, offering my two pence.

I think I can hear the thin ice cracking. I hope I am wrong.

[Dreadbelly]

Oh. If I suddenly disapear and don't show up any more, it was nice knowing all of you. Much love for everybody. It was a pleasure knowing all of you. Even those of you that I disagreed with. It was most pleasant having debate and tossing the issues around well educated highly opinionated people. Inspite of what some might think, I hold a lot of respect for the lot of you.

If I do get canned, mayhap I will check in from time to time from the library computers or other points of public access where I will not have to worry about having my IP blocked.

Sorry, I don't mean to be the voice of gloom, but I have a bad feeling about this. I have been repeatedly singled out in the past, my threads have been deleted, I have received all kinds of warnings for only doing what so many others around here do as well.

I mean no disrespect but saying what little I have said has made me most nervous.

[bear]

Here's my opinion:

This site is a commercial site. It was created to make money.
You can't go into a clothing store and swear, tell people off, or argue, without getting tossed out of the store.
Why should it be different here?

You can talk about changing the site all you like but it ain't gonna happen.
As a commercial site, it is imperative that the forum be a place that is peaceful, respectful, and helpful to new kilted guys. The more members and hits there are, the more Hank can ask for advertising and the more stuff he sells through Highland Tide.

In short, as much as some would like this place to be a social club for kilt wearers, it was started as a commercial venture and as it gets more successful, it will lean more to that side of things.
Without the money generating aspects of X Marks The Scot, there would be no social club.
That's business, folks.

[motorman4life]

Here's my opinion:
This site is a commercial site. It was created to make money.
You can't go into a clothing store and swear, tell people off, or argue, without getting tossed out of the store.
Why should it be different here?
That's business, folks.

Then why have a review section when you risk upsetting paying advertisers if someone gives a bad review of their product or service? If Hank is selling items (tee shirts, pins, hats, etc... through his site, then I assume he would want to encourage a forum where people feel they can talk openly about what is out there, good and bad, maybe seek input from others, get advice and hear other perspectives.

If it is about selling ad space and getting top dollar for promoting or protecting certain makers over others.. then that takes away from the objectivity and open communication for the sake of the business. It is a forum.. are we expected to be mindless sheep? Should contributors be afraid to post their honest replies or give input out of fear of retaliation/banning?

I had thought Hank had struck a happy medium here.. a balance between the chaos and flaming in the UK Yahoo Group and a dictatorial place where you can only post if you agree with the company line.

For the record, posts and threads are being deleted that did not contain swearing, threats or even arguments. The policy that no one can comment on reviews or give their feedback/experience (good or bad) to accompany a good or bad review is just plain wrong. Saying "the policy will change and we don't want to hear anything about it from any of you" is just plain bad news.

By and large, people are not here to see the ads or cheerlead for a specific maker. They are here because they like to communicate with other kilt wearers, makers and sellers and/or get feedback and information in an open forum. I would not call it a country club.. but, it if it is a 100% business site, why have forums at all? Why not just scrap them alltogether? The fact is, the forums are a place to congregate and communicate.. they draw people in who ultimately see the ads and maybe click-thru to the advertisers or possibly purchase some of the items Hank sells. I come back for the people and the stories and the opinions, not the ads.

That said, could someone please pass me the suntan lotion?

[bear]

Then why have a review section when you risk upsetting paying advertisers if someone gives a bad review of their product or service? If Hank is selling items (tee shirts, pins, hats, etc... through his site, then I assume he would want to encourage a forum where people feel they can talk openly about what is out there, good and bad, maybe seek input from others, get advice and hear other perspectives.

Because this place is not ONLY a commercial site. It is also a forum and a source of info the kilt interested.
Many things are needed for the success of this place. All these things are based on people logging on in sufficient numbers, so decorum is a must.
(And my experience doesn't show people holding back at all!)

If it is about selling ad space and getting top dollar for promoting or protecting certain makers over others.. then that takes away from the objectivity and open communication for the sake of the business. It is a forum.. are we expected to be mindless sheep? Should contributors be afraid to post their honest replies or give input out of fear of retaliation/banning?

I don't see certain kiltmakers being promoted over others, other than the advertising they have paid for. That's from a non advertising kiltmaker.

I had thought Hank had struck a happy medium here.. a balance between the chaos and flaming in the UK Yahoo Group and a dictatorial place where you can only post if you agree with the company line.

The post I'm replying to is not with, "the company line", but it's still here. You or I might not agree with some deletions that have happened but if it comes down to staying and following the rules or leaving, I'm sticking around. Each of us makes that same choice each day.

For the record, posts and threads are being deleted that did not contain swearing, threats or even arguments. The policy that no one can comment on reviews or give their feedback/experience (good or bad) to accompany a good or bad review is just plain wrong. Saying "the policy will change and we don't want to hear anything about it from any of you" is just plain bad news.

Whenever I've asked (not complained) why a post or thread was deleted, I've always received an answer. I didn't always agree with the answer but that's life.

By and large, people are not here to see the ads or cheerlead for a specific maker. They are here because they like to communicate with other kilt wearers, makers and sellers and/or get feedback and information in an open forum. I would not call it a country club.. but, it if it is a 100% business site, why have forums at all? Why not just scrap them alltogether? The fact is, the forums are a place to congregate and communicate.. they draw people in who ultimately see the ads and maybe click-thru to the advertisers or possibly purchase some of the items Hank sells. I come back for the people and the stories and the opinions, not the ads.

That said, could someone please pass me the suntan lotion?

People don't watch television for the ads but I hear that's a medium that's doing fairly well. Talk about a commercial venue! People tune in to enjoy the shows (forums) and in the process, see the commercials (ads).
I heard television has some rules about what you can say/do/show, as well. They're a bit stricter than this place. In fact they have their own censors!