Where's the love..

[motorman4life]

Here's my opinion:
This site is a commercial site. It was created to make money.
You can't go into a clothing store and swear, tell people off, or argue, without getting tossed out of the store.
Why should it be different here?
That's business, folks.

Then why have a review section when you risk upsetting paying advertisers if someone gives a bad review of their product or service? If Hank is selling items (tee shirts, pins, hats, etc... through his site, then I assume he would want to encourage a forum where people feel they can talk openly about what is out there, good and bad, maybe seek input from others, get advice and hear other perspectives.

If it is about selling ad space and getting top dollar for promoting or protecting certain makers over others.. then that takes away from the objectivity and open communication for the sake of the business. It is a forum.. are we expected to be mindless sheep? Should contributors be afraid to post their honest replies or give input out of fear of retaliation/banning?

I had thought Hank had struck a happy medium here.. a balance between the chaos and flaming in the UK Yahoo Group and a dictatorial place where you can only post if you agree with the company line.

For the record, posts and threads are being deleted that did not contain swearing, threats or even arguments. The policy that no one can comment on reviews or give their feedback/experience (good or bad) to accompany a good or bad review is just plain wrong. Saying "the policy will change and we don't want to hear anything about it from any of you" is just plain bad news.

By and large, people are not here to see the ads or cheerlead for a specific maker. They are here because they like to communicate with other kilt wearers, makers and sellers and/or get feedback and information in an open forum. I would not call it a country club.. but, it if it is a 100% business site, why have forums at all? Why not just scrap them alltogether? The fact is, the forums are a place to congregate and communicate.. they draw people in who ultimately see the ads and maybe click-thru to the advertisers or possibly purchase some of the items Hank sells. I come back for the people and the stories and the opinions, not the ads.

That said, could someone please pass me the suntan lotion?

[KMacT]

Nelson the moderator wrote "Do not email the mods wanting the rules changed when they are posted."

Is it me, or does that statement seem unnecessarily dictatorial.

I understand where you are coming from (I'm generally quite open to discussion on pretty much any topic), but I do notice that one of the pre-existing rules (in place for at least as long as I've been a member here) is the following: "Don't bother complaining about the rules..."

So again, while it's not an approach that I would take, it is the first rule of he site and Nelson was only repeating it. We've all been given notice of this a long time ago.

I have felt free to comment on *proposed* rule changes, but if I can't live with the rules once they are announced, I'd probably just leave. Well, first I expect I'd send a PM to Hank expressing my concerns, but I wouldn't have any expectations of change after reading the "do not complain" rule.

Hey Nelson.. Mr. Liberty. I love your sig. But, do you know what liberty is? ...The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing

The problem I see with this approach is that it ignores the question whose liberty one is upholding. In a private forum the moderators also have the freedom to express themselves. They do so, at times, by enforcing rules of conduct. As has been said, this is Hank's house and he can govern it as he pleases. Hank (or the other moderators) are *free* to do so because they do know what liberty is.

Kevin

[Graham]

well said Kevin.

While I have had a couple of posts deleted (didn't miss them, I have plenty left), and I know I can sometimes take it personally, there is no escaping that this forum is well run and free of the abuses I've seen in other forums.

That "order" may come at a price, and I also am sure (as a former moderator in another forum) that moderators don't always get it right, they are human too, yet I think it may good to look at the positives of what we have here, instead of stirring up strife as, frankly Motorman, I think you are close to doing.

Let us worry more about the good of the community, than our personal "rights".
This is a place to talk about kilts, anything more is a bonus.

[Jerry]

I have had a few posts deleted in the past also. However when I thought about them, I felt, myself, that deleting them was the correct choice. When I first posted them I was probably under the infuence of a few too many.

[Graham]

I have had a few posts deleted in the past also. However when I thought about them, I felt, myself, that deleting them was the correct choice. When I first posted them I was probably under the infuence of a few too many.

:-D yes, I get rather bold in speech after a few drams ;) (to my peril)

[Raphael]

Nelson and other moderators are just doing their jobs to bring order to this forum and to prevent disagreements/discussions from going out of hand.

They are the Law and Order of Xmarksthescot.com.

[bear]

Then why have a review section when you risk upsetting paying advertisers if someone gives a bad review of their product or service? If Hank is selling items (tee shirts, pins, hats, etc... through his site, then I assume he would want to encourage a forum where people feel they can talk openly about what is out there, good and bad, maybe seek input from others, get advice and hear other perspectives.

Because this place is not ONLY a commercial site. It is also a forum and a source of info the kilt interested.
Many things are needed for the success of this place. All these things are based on people logging on in sufficient numbers, so decorum is a must.
(And my experience doesn't show people holding back at all!)

If it is about selling ad space and getting top dollar for promoting or protecting certain makers over others.. then that takes away from the objectivity and open communication for the sake of the business. It is a forum.. are we expected to be mindless sheep? Should contributors be afraid to post their honest replies or give input out of fear of retaliation/banning?

I don't see certain kiltmakers being promoted over others, other than the advertising they have paid for. That's from a non advertising kiltmaker.

I had thought Hank had struck a happy medium here.. a balance between the chaos and flaming in the UK Yahoo Group and a dictatorial place where you can only post if you agree with the company line.

The post I'm replying to is not with, "the company line", but it's still here. You or I might not agree with some deletions that have happened but if it comes down to staying and following the rules or leaving, I'm sticking around. Each of us makes that same choice each day.

For the record, posts and threads are being deleted that did not contain swearing, threats or even arguments. The policy that no one can comment on reviews or give their feedback/experience (good or bad) to accompany a good or bad review is just plain wrong. Saying "the policy will change and we don't want to hear anything about it from any of you" is just plain bad news.

Whenever I've asked (not complained) why a post or thread was deleted, I've always received an answer. I didn't always agree with the answer but that's life.

By and large, people are not here to see the ads or cheerlead for a specific maker. They are here because they like to communicate with other kilt wearers, makers and sellers and/or get feedback and information in an open forum. I would not call it a country club.. but, it if it is a 100% business site, why have forums at all? Why not just scrap them alltogether? The fact is, the forums are a place to congregate and communicate.. they draw people in who ultimately see the ads and maybe click-thru to the advertisers or possibly purchase some of the items Hank sells. I come back for the people and the stories and the opinions, not the ads.

That said, could someone please pass me the suntan lotion?

People don't watch television for the ads but I hear that's a medium that's doing fairly well. Talk about a commercial venue! People tune in to enjoy the shows (forums) and in the process, see the commercials (ads).
I heard television has some rules about what you can say/do/show, as well. They're a bit stricter than this place. In fact they have their own censors!

[motorman4life]

People don't watch television for the ads but I hear that's a medium that's doing fairly well. Talk about a commercial venue! People tune in to enjoy the shows (forums) and in the process, see the commercials (ads).
I heard television has some rules about what you can say/do/show, as well. They're a bit stricter than this place. In fact they have their own censors!

Television is pretty much a one-way medium. The viewers don't interact with the show. A closer analogy would be a radio talk show.. they have commercials too. But, if there were a sports show where callers could not criticize the performance or comments made by players or management because the team runs ads, what kind of show would you have?

I wasn’t trying to kick a hornet’s nest here, contrary to what Graham and a few others may think. I understand the moderators are trying to walk a fine line and I really do appreciate the work they do to keep this board on-topic and static free. This is a wonderful place for many reasons, not the least of which is their good judgment. But, what keeps me coming back is the people.. all of you reading this. Even the ones I don’t agree with most of the time. I like to hear other opinions and experiences.

The fact that Hank turns a profit here is a testament to his savvy, but I don’t know anyone that comes here for the ads. They come here for the content that readers such as yourself provide. The open and frank discussion of all things kilted.. that is the “entertainment value” here. Making people feel they cannot post their honest opinion on a product or service and curtailing feedback to those comments in favor of protecting advertisers (or the appearance of such) frankly, takes away from the credibility of the forums.. something I, for one, do not wish to see happen.

The fact that this thread has not been deleted (yet) gives me great hope that maybe the situation is not as bad as some believe. It does inspire hope for an optimistic future!

[cavscout]

Before we go exercising our "Freedom" willy nilly all over everyone else let's also make sure we exercise our responsibility of attempteing to communicate and behave with mutual curtesy toward each other. If we don;t police ourselves then someone else will have to. $.02.

[Bob C]

The rules here are entirely reasonable. The mods do a very good and fair job of enforcing them.

I used to be a moderator at a much busier board than this one (a sports board) and I have little patience for people who cry about not being able to do whatever they want on someone else's property.