Kilt, Skirt, MUG, etc.

[Riverkilt]

Boy, some thread!

No matter what my kilts are called, in what language, the best deal is that if the kilt fashion boom keeps rolling as strong as it has been it won't be too long before those folks our "detectors" find that tease, ridicule, and mock us will be buying and wearing kilts themselves - probably from a combination of peer pressure and common sense.

Yesterday, I'm walking in downtown Flagstaff, AZ wearing my tan UK Survival for a long road trip. Guy driving by hollars out his window very slowly so he's sure to be understood, "Nice Utilikilt!" Gave him the thumbs up.

Now, I submit, if there are men in rural towns like Flagstaff, Arizona that recognize Utilikilts by brand name, the kilt revolution is well underway.

Today was more fun at the conference in Prescott, Arizona. A county public defender, a lady about six feet tall and gorgeous, made it a point to say, "I love your kilt" with a very seductive smile. Was wearing my hand sewn traditional Macdonald Lord of the Isles Hunting from Kathy's Kilts with my Freelander Sporran.

For all the stupid folks there are moments like these that more than offset the fools.

Ron

[Kilted_John]

<SNIP>

So pretty soon you have things that waddle like a duck, quack like a duck, and float like a duck, but nobody actually calls them ducks. Which is really dumb, if you ask me.

AFLAC!!!

:mrgreen:

teehee

[Riverkilt]

"Half of all kilts are 30% skirt."

Yogi Berra ( I think...?)



Ron

[Freedomlover]

Dread,

I think you still fail to understand that no one "decides" what English words mean.

No, I understand it quite well.

In English, we have no such group. The language evolves by the common usage.

I have already said as much. And the common English usage ( see the OED or just about any other English dictionary) is that a kilt is a man's skirt. I fail to see why you are having so much trouble with the concept. Actually, I do have an idea why.

Previously, you suggested that I "lobby" to try to have the definition of "skirt" changed. If you believe that there is an authority that decides the official meaning of English words, could you tell who these people are? Not likely, because there is not anyone. If this evolutionary aspect of English is not taught in universities in the U.S., I wonder what they are teaching you folks!

You missed the point. That suggestion was in response to your expressed desire to never have your kilt refered to as a skirt, and was tongue in cheek.

Think what you want. However, to me a kilt is definitely not a skirt and I have OED authority (albeit not authority of English Immortals) to back me up... There is room for argument and, despite your discomfort with it, alot of room for something you called "relativism".

Something I "called relativism"? Surely you jest. When one insists that "dog" really means "cat" based only on a personal loathing for dogs is relativism. But you are, of course free to think as you please.

Now, I can understand me taking my position strongly (ie. that I don't wish for people to think kilts are a woman's garment). Why Dread, Freedomlover etc. are you guys feel so strongly to argue against me?

I am not against you. Quite the contrary in fact. If you have read my comments you would know why I insist that a kilt is in fact a skirt. Even your precious OED says so, though you insist it doesn't. And while pointing out that we do not have language police as the French do, you appear to wish to police English usage by denying a legitimate common usage for some personal reason.

Why to you feel so strongly that a kilt is indeed a skirt?

It is not a matter of 'feeling'. Feeling one way or the other is subjective. A kilt being a type of skirt is objective.

[Jerry]

The English language "evolves". Once again, I call attention to the Webster's definition:

1 : a knee-length pleated skirt usually of tartan worn by men in Scotland and by Scottish regiments in the British armies.

I look forward to the day when this is changed to "a skirtlike garment worn by men worldwide"

The particular part I'm interested in is "usually of tartan". I haven't gone and looked for a 20 year old dictionary, so I could be wrong, but, I would say that this is a fairly recent addition. Anyhow it doesn't matter to me what most people call it, when I'm wearing my kilt, it's a kilt. I saw an online poll about kilts, about 10 percent of the women responding said, "no matter what a man calls it, it's a skirt and is just another form of crossdressing" This is the attitude that concerns me. It's like this clear minority of women seem to have the attitude of, "I can wear what I want, but men are restricted to trousers" This isn't a rant about women in general, just that very few who have the attitude mentioned.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

....Yesterday, I'm walking in downtown Flagstaff, AZ wearing my tan UK Survival for a long road trip. Guy driving by hollars out his window very slowly so he's sure to be understood, "Nice Utilikilt!" Gave him the thumbs up.

Now, I submit, if there are men in rural towns like Flagstaff, Arizona that recognize Utilikilts by brand name, the kilt revolution is well underway.

Ron, that is outstanding! Congrats on educating your corner of the world and getting support and recognition.

[kiltedpride]

MUG (Male Un-bifurcated Garment) is a term coined by the Utilikilts crowd.
The UK is not, and does not pretend to be related to the Celtic Kilt, Cilt. Because the intent was to develop a totally new type of garment it was thought a new term should be invented also. My choice for a term to describe the style of Kilt I manufacture is "Contemporary Kilt". For high waisted, buckled, Tartan kilts I use the wording "Traditional", with a differentation between "Tank" for an 8yd. handsewn, and "Casual" for a less than 8yd and/or machine sewn.

I concur with the above generally save, I must say I hate the term MUG (Male Un-bifurcated Garment). It is either a mouthful to say/remember in full, or slightly derogatory in short. I'd suggest to Utilikilts that they consider inventing a new term given that they want to market their product quite rightly as unique and different from the Scottish traditional kilt.
As for 'contemporary kilt' that term here (Scotland) refers to the traditional kilt either made with modern fabric or modern design of worsted (say Black douglas tartan or Lion Rampart) or with modifications in design promulgated by 21st Century Kilts see http://www.21stcenturykilts.com/funkintro.htm.
I wonder what other Scots think... ? (are there any on this bulletin board? )
I think generally the above suggestion is not too far off beam - trad kilts for Scottish handwoven kilt made out of 8yds worsted, new term fot Utilikilt (or just call them by the brand name - why not) and either casual or contemporary for all the other abominations that are more fun items (eg Brecon kilt et al )

[kiltedpride]

Ron, that is outstanding! Congrats on educating your corner of the world and getting support and recognition.

Yes that perhaps suggests that guys wearing Utilikits should call them that and be proud to call them by the brand.

[Mike1]

I haven't gone and looked for a 20 year old dictionary, so I could be wrong, but, I would say that this is a fairly recent addition.

From a 40+ year-old Webster's -

kilt: (kilt), n. [prob. < ON], a short, pleated skirt worn by men of the Scottish Highlands

Maybe in another few years, we will have a more accurate definition, eh? ;)

[kiltedpride]

The English language "evolves". Once again, I call attention to the Webster's definition:

1 : a knee-length pleated skirt usually of tartan worn by men in Scotland and by Scottish regiments in the British armies.

I look forward to the day when this is changed to "a skirtlike garment worn by men worldwide"
.................................................
KP: I tend to agree with you (and also that more Scots wear the kilt for day wear - like office - as opposed to wearing same for pubbing, parties, ceilidhs, rugby, football, weddings and events)
The Collins Concise dictionary has def. "knee -length pleated skirt, esp one in plaid as worn by men in the Scottish Highlands" Well that is not correct on a number of counts least of which is that kilts are worn throughout the whole of Scotland, not just the Highlands and are also worn of course internationally. For another definition see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt
.................................

I saw an online poll about kilts, about 10 percent of the women responding said, "no matter what a man calls it, it's a skirt and is just another form of crossdressing" This is the attitude that concerns me. It's like this clear minority of women seem to have the attitude of, "I can wear what I want, but men are restricted to trousers" This isn't a rant about women in general, just that very few who have the attitude mentioned.

KP: That is of course pure ignorance on such women's part. It's akin to a women asking what is under one's kilt and to see the evidence, whilst being horrified when one responds by issuing the challenge "I'll show you mine, if you show me yours first." Pig ignorance - one has to pity them.