Kilt, Skirt, MUG, etc.

[jkdesq]

Oh, yes, and the term "cow" is simply a broad usage describing any domesticated bovine. That is the same broad usage that defines a kilt as a skirt. A specialized skirt to be sure, but a skirt nonetheless.

Good grief, you can't even give me that?!?!? Cow = any FEMALE bovine.

[Freedomlover]

Good grief, you can't even give me that?!?!? Cow = any FEMALE bovine.

You have to look beyond definition #1. The term 'cow' is perfectly acceptable to describe any domestic bovine and is not necessairily gender specific. I am deliberately being attentive to detail because it is that very attention to detail that makes my point.

[jkdesq]

Definition 2 in my dictionary is "the female of other large animals esp. the elephant, whale, and seal." I don't see your point. Growing up in ranching country, I have never heard of anyone use "cow" to describe a male animal.

Our disagreement is easy to boil down.

* I think that the definition of the words "skirt" and "cow" contain gender specific aspects (ie. they are clothes for women and cows are female animals).

* you think that the definition of these same words are gender neutral

We both have a basis for our opinions. However, our opinions do not have any great impact on the world or the lifes of us or the people around us. This is NOT Nobel Prize winning stuff.

Your not going to sway me and I'm not going to sway you.

The only thing I take personally having to rehash the same things over and over. There is at least one dictionary in the world that give gender specific definitions of the word "skirt" and definitions of "kilt" that do not say they are "skirts". You have denied that at least three times. Now, you deny the gender specific definition of "cow". Obviously, this is frustrating.

You claim to understand my point of view, yet you keep attacking it. So what is it? Can we agree to disagree or do I have to continue being on the defensive?

Now Dread answered my question. Why is it that you care so much? Why is it important to you for a kilt to be a skirt?

[leathercubby]

Doesn't it really come down to Utilikilts would sell less of their garments if they called them men's skirts and would make less money? Looking at Utilikilts in denim and khaki, they really do look like skirts. Where as a proper wool tartan kilt, looks like and is a kilt.
Eric

[jkdesq]

Leathercubby,

That would only be the case if the word "skirt" was commonly understood to describe a garment intended for women. That being said, I think your first statement is correct. I'm not partial to UK's, but I don't think they look like skirts -- can't picture a woman wearing something with so many rivets in the crotch area.

Well, one good thing about this thread is it put me over the line, into the regiment. Kudos to me!!!

[Dreadbelly]

Hey, Dread, havent you heard that telling the truth is usually considered a capital offence?

It gets me in to all kinds of trouble. Here, other forums, real life, people don't seem to like you much if you go around saying the sorts of things people desperately do not want to hear. People walk around with their fingers in their ears shouting "I'm not listening! Lalalalalalalala"

But in this instance, it has turned out well. This has been a delightful conversation.

Some thanks to the mods and their gentle nudges.

[Freedomlover]

Definition 2 in my dictionary is "the female of other large animals esp. the elephant, whale, and seal." I don't see your point. Growing up in ranching country, I have never heard of anyone use "cow" to describe a male animal.

Your OED only has 2 definitions? My desk Webster has 4. The narrow gender specific with reference to domestic cattle, the wider use to describe certain non domestic female herbivores, the quite broad use as a term to describe any domestic cattle, and a slovenly woman. Think of it like this: Say you are visiting a ranch and are looking at a pasture full of cattle and you like what you see. Would you say to the rancher, "Those are nice cows, with the exception of those two over there which are obviously bulls". I don't think so. You would most likely just say "nice cows". And you would be quite correct to do so. It is the same thing with skirt/kilt. There is no doubt in either of our minds that a kilt is a very male garment. But, cultural predjudices notwithstanding, a kilt is a kind of skirt.

Our disagreement is easy to boil down.

* I think that the definition of the words "skirt" and "cow" contain gender specific aspects (ie. they are clothes for women and cows are female animals).

These are cultural usage problems, not definition problems.

* you think that the definition of these same words are gender neutral

No, I don't. 'Cow' can be gender specific when used to refer to a female bovine, but it is not gender specific whe used in reference to a herd. 'Skirt' is only culturally gender specific, and wrongly so, seeing that men have worn such garments from earliest times. 'Kilt' is a specific term that defines a male garment, though it has been co-opted to include similar womans skirts. A 'kilt' is a subclassification of 'skirt' because it meets all requirements to be so described, and violates none.

We both have a basis for our opinions. However, our opinions do not have any great impact on the world or the lifes of us or the people around us. This is NOT Nobel Prize winning stuff.

Quite right.

Your not going to sway me and I'm not going to sway you.

Who knows?

The only thing I take personally having to rehash the same things over and over. There is at least one dictionary in the world that give gender specific definitions of the word "skirt" and definitions of "kilt" that do not say they are "skirts". You have denied that at least three times.

One. There are hundreds that say it my way. Discounting, of course, the internal contradiction we previously discussed.

Now, you deny the gender specific definition of "cow". Obviously, this is frustrating.

Of course I deny it because, although it can be gender specific it is not required to be. The same exact thing is applicable to skirt/kilt.

You claim to understand my point of view, yet you keep attacking it. So what is it?

"Attacking" is not applicable. What I am doing is remonstrating with you. That can not be construed as an attack.

Can we agree to disagree or do I have to continue being on the defensive?

Sure we can. No problem.

Now Dread answered my question. Why is it that you care so much? Why is it important to you for a kilt to be a skirt?

Because that is what it is. And for no other reason. And, since you ask, why is it so critical for you that it not be?

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Jamie, good point and reference to the Men in Skirts exhibit. I had forgotten about that. Glad you stuck around to continue to contribute!

Someone also mentioned thay UK's might not sell as well if they were referred to as a man's skirt. Now I don't know real numbers, but there are at least 2 companies selling a garment specifically called a man's skirt, City Skirts in the US and Männerröcke (literally translated as Men's skirts) in Germany, and a quick Google search on men's skirts returns 1,930,000 hits, including this page of useful links to forums and manufacturers. Possibly UK's would sell the same, better, or poorer if they were also included in the men's skirt classification, but certainly if they showed up in a Google search on men's skirts, and I don't know if they do or don't, they would certainly have expanded their market.

My 2 cents, and I have to say this has been a very fun thread to watch, although Freedomlover and jkdesq obviously have more time than I do to devote to this forum!

[Rigged]

'Skirt' is only culturally gender specific, and wrongly so,

Wrongly, perhaps, but the fact is that "skirt" is a gender specific term in American society.

Possibly UK's would sell the same, better, or poorer if they were also included in the men's skirt classification, but certainly if they showed up in a Google search on men's skirts, and I don't know if they do or don't, they would certainly have expanded their market.

As for the previous post, web browser hits don't necessarily translate to sales and sales don't necessarily translate to daily use.

Most men will not wear something called a "skirt" in public. Even among men who wear kilts, most kilt-wearing men aren't wearing them as regular clothing for fear that their kilts will be thought of as "skirts" outside the context of Celtic events, Rennaissance Faires, and Burning Man.

Drawing a bright line between kilts for men and skirts for women can only help the sale and wearing of kilts by men.

There are guys who wear kilts because they are skirt-like and they can get away with wearing them in public easier than wearing a woman's skirt. For these guys, a kilt is a substitute for the skirt they'd rather be wearing. For them, if kilts are skirts, then all skirts might be ok for men to wear.

To say that other cultures have skirts for men is applying an English language word for foreign garments that we don't know the proper names for.

In America, the word "skirt" has a very specific meaning in terms of how it's actually used -- a woman's garment that hangs from the waist and has a length somewhere between the hips and the ankles.

The way we use the word "kilt" also has a very specific meaning -- a man's knee length garment that hangs from the waist having a flat front apron, pleats around the back, and fastens from left to right. Any garment that does those things is some kind of kilt.

Put the book down. Reality ain't in it.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

As for the previous post, web browser hits don't necessarily translate to sales and sales don't necessarily translate to daily use...

Rigged, hope Paris is great! Always wanted to visit there, but always heard they were not too friendly to US citizens.

Anyway, I find that I have no idea what your comment on my post meant. I was only trying to point out that UK advertising their product as a men's skirt as well as a kilt could only increase their potential market, and I WAS thinking specifically in terms of web searches. However, applying the same marketing approach in more traditional advertising applies as well. Could you clarify your comment?

Thanks!
RJI