Kilt, Skirt, MUG, etc.

[jkdesq]

Freedomlover,

Sure "always" was a reckless word to use. I admit it. But within our little mountain out of a mole hill, your taking far, far too much advantage from that small error. Please note that the word "always" was not used in at least the last two postings that contained my question.

Just answer the question: WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DEFINITION OF WORDS COME FROM? Would it help if we rephrase: where do you think the definitions of common English words come from? How about: Generally, the definitions of common English words come from [blank]? The fact that you call my statement (to the effect that the meaning of English words comes from a cultural consensus) a "quagmire of social relativism" makes me very, very curious to get the answer. Absent une academie anglaise, a committee of the House of Lords or Congressional committee, I'm at a lost to know what the source is. Is it the Masons? Her Majesty the Queen?

Can I ask a Moderator to direct that the member answer the question? LOL

[motorman4life]

I chimed in early in this discussion and it seems to have drifted around a bit as well as becoming unnecessarily terse. In reading all of the various posts, I thought this one stood out to me as ringing true, as I perceive it;

Kilt/skirt
shirt/blouse
trousers/slacks
underwear/panties
Many articles of clothing have a "boys name" and a "girls name". Kilts are no more "skirts for men" than shirts are "blouses for men".

There is a conotation that a blouse or skirt are female attire and a shirt or kilt are male attire. While it is acceptable in our culture for women to dress in men's clothing, there is an objective bias against men wearing items that are seen to be within the female domain. This is clearly the reason many men in kilts take offense to having a traditionally maculine garment refered to in a distinctly female context.. particularly when it is being done by someone that knows the difference and is intentionally making the distinction in an effort to raise ire.

[Freedomlover]

Freedomlover,

Sure "always" was a reckless word to use. I admit it. But within our little mountain out of a mole hill, your taking far, far too much advantage from that small error. Please note that the word "always" was not used in at least the last two postings that contained my question.

I hope you don't think I'm picking on the little things. There is a very good reason why I went that way. Language should be used with care lest the speaker convey something he didn't intend, and put the hearer in the position of having to interpret what the speaker may have actually meant. Please understand that everyone gets a little reckless with language now and then (well, maybe William Safire doesn't), but in a discussion of this type precision is crucial.

Just answer the question: WHERE DO YOU THINK THE DEFINITION OF WORDS COME FROM? Would it help if we rephrase: where do you think the definitions of common English words come from? How about: Generally, The fact that you call my statement that the meaning of English words comes from a cultural consensus a "quagmire of social relativism" makes me very where do you think the definitions of common English words come from?

I will surprise you. I think the definition of common English words comes from a consensus opinion. We agree on what a word means, then that is how we use it. But that does not convey any individual right to re-define any given word because of personal notions. Word usages obviously do change over time, but that change is usually gradual, taking generations to evolve. There are exceptions, of course.

My remark about "social relativism", was rooted in your insistance that "skirt" is exclusively female, and therefore you reject out of hand the currently accepted dictionary definition that a kilt is a man's skirt. You cited your desk OED which said "skirtlike" as your reason for rejection. But have you considered what the suffix "like" means? Here it is: "possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to". You have made a distinction without a difference.

My only purpose has been, from the beginning, to address a matter of fact. I do not refer to my kilts as skirts (even though they are), nor do I expect anyone else to. Recognition of plain facts is all I'm after.

Can I ask a Moderator to direct that the member answer the question? LOL

I'm sure you can, but you will find out that no one here is under any compulsion to reply to a post. Participation is voluntary.

[Dreadbelly]

May I be excused? I believe my brain is full. *Urp*

Seriously. All these posts, and nothing is actually being said.

Except for the blouse bit. A Jacobite shirt, by definition of design, is actually a blouse. And it's a male garment.

And what about hose? You say that, and people think, women's hosery. Panty hose. FEMININE! And yet... We skirt wearing men also wear blouses and hose...

Sorry. This thread stopped being productive a long time ago. I was just manning the bellows to get some flames going.

[Rigged]

The word "skirt" clearly has two meanings.

One meaning is generic and describes any kind of tubular hanging object, like the skirt of a car, jacket, or other similarly-configured item of clothing. Using that very generic definition a kilt is indeed a skirt.

The other meaning is the description of a specific type of clothing. In that meaning, a "skirt" is a female garment that hangs from the waist.

A kilt is a skirt.

A kilt is not a skirt.

So, when someone on the street says, "Hey, nice skirt." I have to quickly discern whether they mean the generic sense of "skirt" or if they are attempting to imply that I'm wearing women's clothing.

I look for the smart-a** smirk. If I see the smirk, I correct the person by saying, "It's a kilt, but thank you."

Otherwise, I just say, "Thank you," and smile.

[jkdesq]

One step forward and two steps back. Quit being evasive.

I have never said that I could redefine the word "kilt" or "skirt". My understanding that a "skirt" is a woman's garment comes from several source, which include: i) my OED that defines a skirt as "a woman's outergarment hanging from the waist" combined with the definition of kilt as "skirtlike" and not a "skirt"; ii) my understanding (as a nearly bilingual anglophone Canadian, who has an undergraduate and post-graduate degree and has traveled extensively through Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and East Asia) that when a typical English speaker says "skirt" they mean a garment intended for woman. The fact that when an English speaker calls a man's kilt a "skirt" they usually mean to tease or offend, I would say is a point in support of my opinion.

My point all along has been that there is ambiguity in the meaning of English words. There is no way to avoid ambiguity in a "culture consensus". Why do you think the first 1/4 of any legal document is definitions? Unless you are going to conduct a pole of all English speakers and come up with a system of quorum for the number of speakers it takes to lay the foundation of a definition, there is no absolute answer to what a word means. The OED and Websters (and fine, the bargain basement Compact OED weighs in on the Webster's side) disagree so dictionaries aren't the final answer. Are you suggesting that you are the sole English Immortal and can definitively tell me what "skirt" and "kilt" mean?

We are left with ambiguity. From there, individuals can take opinions. Everyone knows mine and yours. Neither are correct, neither are incorrect.

I've been offering a draw for awhile. It is you who keeps looking for the knock out punch and calling my point of view incorrect and "irrational". Can we agree to disagree and to respect each others opinions as rational and reasonable?

[Freedomlover]

Well, I give up. You aren't the only one with both undergraduate and graduate degrees, but possession of formal education does not guarantee perspicacity. Rigged, in the post just above, has it right. I had hoped for the recognition of an excruciatingly simple fact, but my hope was in vain. So yes, we can call it a draw.

[Kilts_Knave]

This quote sums it up best. I am tired of this post. Thank you Dread, would you like your stick back? (I borrowed it to help stir...)

There is a conotation that a blouse or skirt are female attire and a shirt or kilt are male attire. While it is acceptable in our culture for women to dress in men's clothing, there is an objective bias against men wearing items that are seen to be within the female domain. This is clearly the reason many men in kilts take offense to having a traditionally maculine garment refered to in a distinctly female context.. particularly when it is being done by someone that knows the difference and is intentionally making the distinction in an effort to raise ire.

[jkdesq]

Not the draw I was asking for.

I don't know why you think it is even possible for anyone to be correct, either your or Rigged. But kicking and screaming ... Whatever ....

[bubba]

One meaning is generic and describes any kind of tubular hanging object

Does that include wind chimes?