Kilt, Skirt, MUG, etc.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Kiltmaking is, imo, a mix of craft and art, not science. As for language, it doesn't only evolve, it gets mangled and mutilated as well through common usage. Just look at what's happened to the word gay over the years. That's just the way English is. It swipes words from just about every other language, alters meanings almost on a yearly basis, incorporates slang and jargon into the base language and adapts constantly. If someone wants to think of a kilt as a skirt that's not wrong under English usage, but those that don't see a kilt as a skirt aren't wrong either. Logic has nothing at all to do with the whole debate, it's entirely viewpoint and laguage usage.

Da**, go away for 2 hours to drive home and have dinner and there are 50 new posts!
Bubba, I think that you have hit on the crux of the matter. Regardless of which meaning or authority you ascribe to, logic has nothing to do with it.

Disclaimer: I reserve my right to change this opinion after I read the rest of the posts if somebody has a better argument!

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Not the draw I was asking for.

I don't know why you think it is even possible for anyone to be correct, either your or Rigged. But kicking and screaming ... Whatever ....

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really (did I say I really did not understand yet) did not want to get into this, but if it is a draw, or an agreement to disagree, why do you have to put conditions on it. Freedomlover has agreed to drop it, why can't you? And if you already have in a post I haven't gotten to yet, my apologies.

RJI

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

May I be excused? I believe my brain is full. *Urp*

Seriously. All these posts, and nothing is actually being said.

Except for the blouse bit. A Jacobite shirt, by definition of design, is actually a blouse. And it's a male garment.

And what about hose? You say that, and people think, women's hosery. Panty hose. FEMININE! And yet... We skirt wearing men also wear blouses and hose...

Sorry. This thread stopped being productive a long time ago. I was just manning the bellows to get some flames going.

Dread, I think that is the only reason to read this thread anymore, and I started it! I admit my goal was to drive some lively debate, but between more than 2 participants sniping at each other and the rest of us going wondering what the big deal was. The only reason I see to continue this thread now is to break the number of posts and reviews! I thought I saw on a thread that the longest on Xmarks was 168, we have to be getting close at this point.

[Rigged]

The "big deal" is one of public perception. Particularly when the public is one's employer or spouse.

[Sherry]

But, since you can't control people's actual thoughts, isn't the best thing to do about public perception is to wear your kilt(s) often & be a supreme gentleman while you are out?

I am, unfortunately, the type of person who worries too much about what others think (though I have improved much in this area over the years). My 20yo son, OTOH, doesn't worry about it at all. While he doesn't give a flip what others think, he is a gentleman, & does (I think in fact) influence others' thinking about the kilt in a positive way.

Sherry

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

...doesn't give a flip what others think, he is a gentleman, & does (I think in fact) influence others' thinking about the kilt in a positive way...

Sherry, this is what I aspire too.

It also looks like I might also have hijacked my own thread back! Either that or Freedomlover and jkdesq are off for the weekend. Anyway, if anyone has been following the Underkilt thread, feel free to leverage that to point your views here. I already pointed Jdez to this thread to educate him.

RJI

[Rigged]

But, since you can't control people's actual thoughts,

Actually, marketing and political propogandists do a pretty good job of controlling people's thoughts. It's all about a careful choice of words and using them consistently.

They do it so well that people just rattle off words and phrases without even thinking about where they came from. I used, "A woman's right to choose." as an example in a previous post. The word, "homosexual" had a negative connotation so "gay" is now commonly used. Times have changed and among teenagers, "gay" now has a negative connotation (meaning "stupid" or "banal").

While it's easy for some people to walk around with their chest puffed out proclaiming that they don't care what anyone else thinks, there are some people who can totally screw up your life (bosses, spouses -- especially if you have young children, cops).

I've also said elsewhere that there are several agendas at work on this board.

Some guys are strict traditionalists, some are closet cross-dressers, others are unisex gender-neutralists. We've got feminists, masculinists, marketeers, and people who just like to push buttons. We also have guys that just want the freedom to wear the kilts of our choice whenever and wherever we choose.

Some of the traditional kiltmakers and kilt wearers are having fits over the modern kilts. If it weren't for the moderns, kilt-wearing would still be a once-a-year or once-in-a-lifetime event for most guys -- like wearing a tuxedo.

Now, there are kilts that can be worn in more casual situations. I can't imagine why anyone would object to that.

I'm not going to wear a neatly pressed, nicely tailored, hand-sewn kilt with kilt pin and sporran to help a friend move heavy furniture. I have an ugly, faded, stained workman's Utilikilt for stuff like that.

I state my agenda up front: What gets more guys into kilts is good -- what doesn't get more guys into kilts is bad.

[JDEZ]

Sherry, this is what I aspire too.

It also looks like I might also have hijacked my own thread back! Either that or Freedomlover and jkdesq are off for the weekend. Anyway, if anyone has been following the Underkilt thread, feel free to leverage that to point your views here. I already pointed Jdez to this thread to educate him.

RJI

Great educational thread. I am new to the group as of yesterday. This subject touches on a topic of interest to me since my company manufactures (among other things) skirt-like garments for men (http://www.jdez.com/men). During our initial test marketing, many of our customers referred to our products as "kilts". We noticed right away that a lot of men were sensitive to the word "skirt". Our most popular items, (we now call "Kilt-Shorts"), has drawn criticism from the kilt community. These styles are different in that they are designed to convert into decent looking shorts.- But they really are not kilts. I have only recently learned about the controversy surrounding the subject of "kilts" vs. "skirts". I had a thought that might help reduce market confusion, which I mentioned on another thread (http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...6&page=4&pp=10):

...Maybe the term "Mock-Kilt" could be used to define non-kilt men's garments that have a somewhat similar silhouette as a kilt? That would mean that anything that does not conform to the traditional configuration of a Kilt, but looks kind of like a kilt from a distance could be called a "Mock-Kilt". Maybe such a term as this (or similar) could be used to satisfy the needs of manufacturers making alternative men's skirt products without encroaching too much on Scottish heritage. I do agree that the image and definition of a kilt should remain what it is. Manufacturers just can't broadly sell something called a men's skirt in today's market. - Just looking for a solution to what looks to be an old problem. - I appreciate everyone's input on this issue, as I am new to the men's apparel industry.

Thanks RJI for pointing out this thread.

-- Dave

[KiltedBishop]

Wow...made it to the end! Personally I think the english language is a mess, that is why it is so hard to learn. Our letter groupings sound different in different words, through, rough, bough, and the definitions change. Words have meanings now, that may be different tomorrow. pleat and tartan used to mean different things than they do now. I personally think the big problem with the word "skirt" is it's slang term for a woman/girl.

I am glad everyone enjoys their dictionary but I lost faith in it when I heard the word Nuculear was going in as "a mispronuciation of Nuclear". For me it's just a name, just a word. call it a skirt, a kilt, a love curtain, a penis tent, does it really matter? if the term skirt became accepted as non-sexual *** holes would start calling them dresses...and so on. It is interesting to hear peoples thoughts. I have had it called a skirt, even as a dig and I just say "thanks". The only bad reaction I had was when someone asked why I was wearing a girls dress, I said it was a kilt, or a man-skirt, and I wear because it's comfortable and I could only feel sorry for him that he and his equipment fit well into trousers, me and mine don't. He shut up

Cheers

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

J'Dez,

Glad to help! There is a lot of info on this board, and some very lively discussions. As Rigged pointed out, we have a broad mix of people participating with a broad range of goals/agendas/etc., and Hank and the rest of the Mods do a pretty good job of keeping things on track. I don't always agree with some of the censors, but I do enjoy this board more than most because it rarely degenerates into the sniping and personal attacks that pervade many boards.

KiltedBishop, good point on how difficult English is to learn, and how it keeps evolving. Before gay became synonymous with homosexuality, the original meaning was just happy or with a positive upbeat attitude. Never did understand how it could morph to refer to somebody who was homosexual. Was it that people thought homosexuals were happier than others? Why were heterosexuals referred to as "straight"?

So many questions, so few real answers.