PC Kilts

[Scotus]

No, this is not a new type of kilt. I wanted to respond to something Graham posted in the pics forum in regard to why I don't post or visit this forum very much now. Graham wrote, "I have strongly held opinions too, many of us do, but my opinions are not compromised, threatened or changed by accepting that others' have different views."

It's not that I am threatened. My opinions are very firm in believing that some "kilts" that are being worn are not really kilts at all. Now, you'd think we'd be able to have such discussions, but it usually comes down to the more modern "kilt" wearers calling names. Here is an example from a Campbell (WarBird), "That kiltmaker is a moron. End of story."

How can one argue against, "That kiltmaker is a moron," just because they have a different opinion about what a kilt is and is not? I happen to agree with the kiltmaker. Thus, since I don't wish to be called names, I am not inclined to post. "You are a moron" is not an agrument that threatens, as it is not an argument at all.

I don't hold any anger for individuals on this forum, but their does seem to be a lot of political correctness around here.

[Archangel]

I don't hold any anger for individuals on this forum, but their does seem to be a lot of political correctness around here.

Father Archer (Scotus)

Not wishing to start anything but what do you mean when you use the term "political correctness"? The phrase always sets off warning bells that I'm about to hear some racist/sexist/bigot express frustration that they can't continue in their ways. Well, to them, tough.

I certainly am not assuming that you are one, and hope that I'm right. However, there is only correct or wrong. There are exceptions but you initiated the thread so you get to define the terms.

NB: these types of threads rarely go/end well.

[bubba]

I don't buy into that black and white view of things. Reality is too many shades of gray.

[Archangel]

I don't buy into that black and white view of things. Reality is too many shades of gray.

Not sure if you're addressing my post or the previous one. For the record, I'm a firm believer in continuums. (Hmm, that would be an oxymoron, wouldn't it, oh well) Anyway, that would put us in agreement.

[bubba]

Political correctness is often used to mean conventional wisdom which is rarely as conventional as believed and seldom all that wise. It's mostly a way to avoid the hard work of thinking through issues. That's why I avoid the term like malaria and try to look at things on a deeper level rather than accept things at face value. To put this on topic, a kilt is a kilt regardless of the fabric. It's more a method of construction and, yes, I believe the contemporary kilts are as much kilts as the ones made of alternate fabrics as are the worsted wool traditionals. There's room for them all under the heading of kilts.

[Iolaus]

To put this on topic, a kilt is a kilt regardless of the fabric. It's more a method of construction and, yes, I believe the contemporary kilts are as much kilts as the ones made of alternate fabrics as are the worsted wool traditionals. There's room for them all under the heading of kilts.

I suspect that's where you and Scotus may differ. ;)

I agree with most of what you said. I believe the kilt will either evolve or be relegated back to purely "cultural event wear."

I think we need to remain respectful of the criticisms of the traditionalists though; their view is just as valid as ours. By stating your opinion as an absolute, you shut down the discussion. You have stated your belief and essentially told him that his traditional view is invalid and unimportant. Why should he continue the conversation?

Many of us "moderns," will continue to believe we are wearing an evolved form of kilt, and we will continue to encourage other neophytes to explore the modern styles. However, sometimes it seems like some men on both sides of the question will answer a challenge by lashing out instinctively rather than debating the issue...or they debate in endless circles over archaic definitions, rather than just agreeing to disagree.

The whole Kilt/Skirt issue seems to blow up into a problem of some sort every time it's brought up, If Scotus believes wholeheartedly that it's "traditional or nothing," then I can understand his desire to avoid being drawn into emotional arguements that no-one will ever win; he's not going to change his stance and neither are we.

[bubba]

No, I'm not telling anyone their opinion is invalid, just stating mine clearly. Others have a different opinion and that's fine. The fact that I prefer tartans in a traditional style has nothing to do with it. All clothing evolves to suit conditions and the public tastes or it ceases to exist. Seen many guys wearing tricorner hats lately? ;-)

[Iolaus]

Seen many guys wearing tricorner hats lately? ;-)

No.

[Graham]

Well Scotus my friend, you must act according to your own conscience, and I wouldn't want to change your mind if it's made up.

I would only say two things:
1. As I understand political correctness, I wouldn't accuse many of that here. I think PC is a joke in most aspects, but neither do I think that the lack of it should be an excuse to mistreat or disrespect one another.

2. This forum is strictly monitored, some think too strictly, but those that stray from the path laid out by the forum owner are usually cut short.
This must surely apply to personal abuse as it does to religious and political discussion.

If I saw someone calling another a moron I would want that post deleted right away.

Anyway, up to you, but if you should post here, I for one would welcome what you have to say, whether I agree with it or not.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

A couple of times on this board the issue has come up of "what defines a kilt?" No one can agree. And I've even had conversations with poeople both Highland dress academics and in the Highland dress manufacture/retail industry in Scotland on this very question, and it doesn't seem to be a thing you can strictly define. The best that most people are willing to agree to is that they "know one when they see one."

The problem is that the kilt (and here I'm speaking strictly of the kilt as it can be found in the past 400 years of Scottish tradition) has had enough variations in its construction and make-up that it's very hard to set defining criteria that does not eliminate certain styles that all agree are "true kilts."

Speaking only of traditional kilts here, you find them made from tartan, solids, and tweeds of various patterns. You find them knife pleated and box pleated, and sometimes with a combination of the two. You find them made with a great variety of closure methods. You find them containing anywhere from 3 to 8 (more for larger men!) yards of cloth. You find them being made in nearly every country of the world where Scots have left their mark. You can even find old portraits of kilts with pleats all the way around the front!

So you can see why establishing a formal definition for a "kilt" is hard. I tend to avoid the issue by saying there are kilts, and then there are kilts. Just because something is a kilt doesn't mean it is a good kilt. Just like pants, shoes, shirts, jackets, and any other form of clothing, there is a wide variety of quality available on the market, and let the buyer beware.

I know what Fr. Archer means about the Utilikilt, and I see his point. I'm sure he'll correct me if I am misrepresnting his position, but as the Utilikilt was invented independantly of the Scottish tradition, for completely different purposes, it really only resembles a kilt in the fact that it is an unbifurcated garment worn by men. So why call it a kilt? Why not come up with some other kind of name? I can understand why this would seem to many to be an unjustified usurption of part of Highland tradition.

Some wear the kilt every day because they like wearing that style of clothing. Most people wear the kilt precisely because it is a heritage garment, and they wear it to reflect their heritage. (And then you have those who wear it every day as a heritage garment). :-) Obviously these people will have differing opinions as to what makes a good kilt.

Aye,
Matt