Economic theory

[RockyR]

I don't mind people trying to make a kilt for themselves... I understand the "I did it myself" mentality. Generally, the material people get for their first kilt (bought at a local fabric shop) is "not the best" quality and figuring out how to make the first one is very difficult (it took us a LONG time to perfect our different designs). Trying to make one yourself actually HELPS people appreciate the $100 - $130 kilts that are out there now! I've had several people tell me that they tried to make a kilt themselves and gave up and ended up buying one of ours!

What I do NOT like is when people take our Casual kilt and copy it EXACTLY to make kilts for everyone they know. We had a lady come into our shop and straight up TELL us that she was making kilts for her wedding party. She said she wanted to see how we did it so she could copy our design for 5 kilts because she "didn't want to spend the money on rental or buying them". Needless to say, she wasn't in the shop much longer than that last sentence.

Alan used PART of our design and part of other company's kilt designs to make a kilt for himself and that's FINE... but stealing our design to replicate on several kilts for multiple people gets under my skin. Utilikilt has to deal with people (and small "fly by night" companies*) that try to rip off their EXACT design all the time (because they're bigger and more well recognized than us). I feel bad for them.

Sorry for the rant... back to the topic.


* "small fly by night" companies comment was NOT a reflection of FK, PK or RK... they all have ORIGINAL designs.

[David Thornton]

Rocky, she may have lasted longer with you than she would have with me.
I do not take you comments as a rant, rather as a response based on your experience.
All of you touched on one of my basis for the discussion in the first place. Cost of labor. I cannot sew a kilt for what I can buy one for, even if I only pay myself $20 an hour. So, why do so many want to? The perception that a new kilt is too expensive.
Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.
David

[davedove]

Greater demand would cause some kilt makers to look into more cast savings measures. For one thing, you would start seeing a lot more companies offering off the rack kilts, with standard sizes, just as with other garments. However, you would still have some kilt makers doing it the old way, and these would still be expensive. We are seeing a little bit of this now, but if kilts are gerally accepted, these practices will grow considerably. With general acceptance, you would get the Walmart kilts, which while perfectly functional, just would not be of the same quality. (Not putting down Walmart - I buy a lot of stuff there).

[Riverkilt]

I agree with Glen about folks getting satisfaction from trying their hand at kiltmaking - but thinking hand sewn traditional like Barb's book rather than a poly casual.

Funny, don't think I've EVER heard of a GUY going out and sewing up a pair of trousers for the satisfaction or economics of it.

There's magic in kilts.

And I agree with Rocky, the markets booming. Posted on another thread about flying from Phoenix to Sandy Eggo and back for a visit with my brother and his family. Poked around North County Sandy Eggo.

EVERYWHERE I went I not only got compliments, people identified my Utilikilts by name. Something is happening. UKs stand out for their unique design and logo on the butt, yet there's also an acceptance of kilts happening, and more important, an awareness that a kilt is a legitimate choice for a man's garment to wear in public with pride.

Ron

[Raphael]

EVERYWHERE I went I not only got compliments, people identified my Utilikilts by name. Something is happening. UKs stand out for their unique design and logo on the butt, yet there's also an acceptance of kilts happening, and more important, an awareness that a kilt is a legitimate choice for a man's garment to wear in public with pride.

Ron

Utilikilts are definitely getting a lot men into kilt wearing. This is the first company, I believe, that believe kilt wearing is for everyone and not for Scots only. The Cargo pockets definately eliminate the need of wearing a sporran. The rugged appeal definately strike to the fashion sense of most men.

OF course, the marketing strategy is brilliant. They travel around the country and bring their kilts to the masses. They already build a solid brand recognition in the US and Canada, and their populairty will only grow.

[Barb T]

A trad kilt made by the traditional method (i.e., all hand sewn, not just hand finished, with all the stabilizing interior construction and pleat shaping that makes a trad kilt different from a machine-made kilt) takes me 20-24 hours of working time to make. It simply takes that long to make a kilt. The only ways to make it more cheaply are to make it in less time by cutting corners on the construction or to make it with less expensive materials or to do it with really cheap labor. All three are currently being done. If you want to cut cost but want top flight fabric with traditional top flight construction, you need to find a kiltmaker who will work for only a few $ an hour. Otherwise, your only choices to cut costs are in materials and construction.

I buy tartan wholesale and, with the dollar as weak as it has been, I've been spending over $200 just on the tartan lately. Do the math. If I were doing this for a retailer who then sold the kilt to a customer who had ordered the kilt, you can see where the final cost comes from. It is cheaper to order a trad kilt directly from the kiltmaker, but it still isn't cheap.

Barb

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Okay... so Barb does it in half the time as me!

I have a few years to catch-up!!!

As long as people are willing to pay the prices, they're going to be charged. Economics aside, it's just business. You really think that SportKilts cost that much for the material and labor? There's atleast one kilt company here that knows better.

Like Barb... there are any number of suppliers and mills that will "deal" with kilt makers and give them one hill of a price. Aside from the actual material costs, you have to include freight and (depending on the source) duty. There are no less than seven mills in the USA that are making what the companies need, and that alone saves a LOAD of money... especially if you know where to pick-up the rolls personally.

I would gladly pay hundreds for one of Barb's pure, hand-made kilts. I will pay the price for the unique and rugged UtiliKilt. I will pay for the uniquely, well-crafted Grizzly-Cut BearKilts. If I'm going to be a non-conformist by wearing a kilt... the kilt itself is going to be "crafted" and not made.

[RockyR]

Rocky, she may have lasted longer with you than she would have with me.
I do not take you comments as a rant, rather as a response based on your experience.
All of you touched on one of my basis for the discussion in the first place. Cost of labor. I cannot sew a kilt for what I can buy one for, even if I only pay myself $20 an hour. So, why do so many want to? The perception that a new kilt is too expensive.
Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.
David

Hey David... glad that didn't come across as TOO angry!

I have a slightly different view on it from this side of the table. I think Ugly is right... HOPEFULLY, Kilts will take off as an everyday man's garment. However, I'm realistic and don't see that in the IMMEDIATE future. In order for the cost to come down substantially, you'd have to outsource the labor. In order to make a good profit marjin (enough where you can retail a kilt below $50) on outsourced labor, you'd have to make 200 to 300 kilts at a time, in 1 size and the design has to be VERY SIMPLE (skirtlike). Commercial Sewing contractors make money on repitition and making the EXACT same thing several hundred times. In order to be ABLE to order 200 kilts in a 4 or 5 sizes (we're up to 800 to 1000 kilts... and if you want different colors/tartans, forget it), there has to be a DEMAND for them to be bought in the general public. I don't see THAT high of a demand for "skirtlike kilts" in the immediate future.

You have to ask yourself... do you WANT a kilt that was mass produced, with poor quality material, less than stellar labor, that looks like a skirt, whose makers have little to no interest in the tradition and that helps to put smaller companies out of business?

I think that if Kelly and I had 150 orders for Casual kilts each month, we could drop the price. Unfortunately, we don't have QUITE that many orders.. yet. ;)

Another thought that has not been brought up yet... the kiltmakers (not companies that buy kilts, then mark them up and re-sell them, but people who actually MAKE them) on this board are all RETAILERS, not wholesalers. Steve, Jeff, Robert, Matt, Barb, Terry and I all make these OURSELVES and BELIEVE me, we aint rich.

Again... sorry to rant. I hope I'm not coming off as harsh... just expressing a STRONG opinion from a kiltmaker POV. Other kiltmakers may see it different.

[Ugly Bear]

Ugly, I beg to differ. The market is growing exponentially. Both on the custom side and on the off shore side, not to mention the emergance of the modern kilt.
I have on my tank today becasue of a dinner engagement tonight. I'm a buyer, so you know I'm not complaining, just wondering. Again, my understanding would indicate that with growing demand, and a fairly high price for a decent kilt, more competition would come in and prices would drop.

The market is growing, maybe even exponentially. But it's growing from a very small base. We're still well outside the mainstream.

And you're right that a higher demand will mean lower prices. Higher demand will mean that more sheep can be bred and shorn for their wool, lowering material cost. Higher demand would mean that kiltmakers could hire more staff, confident that they won't have idle hands, lowering labor costs. Higher demand would mean that kiltmakers could produce more stock, confident that they could eventually sell most of it.

But we're not there yet. I've said before (based on nothing but a hunch) that there will be a big turnaround sometime around 2010-2012, and kilts will then be a viable alternative to trousers for all men. Until then, costs will stay, relatively, high.

Also, higher demand can manifest itself as scarcity. Case in point: I missed calling Rocky & Kelly before their big weekend, and I now have a nice, long wait until I get my next kilt. I'm not complaining, though. Not a bit. Because I know that the alternative is an even longer wait at a higher price. So, yes, the demand is growing. I say it'll reach critical mass in about 5-7 years.

[Ugly Bear]

We had a lady come into our shop and straight up TELL us that she was making kilts for her wedding party. She said she wanted to see how we did it so she could copy our design for 5 kilts because she "didn't want to spend the money on rental or buying them". Needless to say, she wasn't in the shop much longer than that last sentence.

Good for you. You probably kept her entire wedding party from looking like crap. (That's not knocking your design, just making a guess that she was looking to outfit the party as cheaply as possible.) I can picture them on the morning of the wedding, getting their kilts made out of tablecloths and duct tape.

By the way, do you outfit wedding parties? I'd think there'd be a sizable demand for wedding kilts in the $100-250 range. After all, it's a garment that most of them are probably planning on never wearing again, and the alternative is something in the $400-900 range. I'd think you could drum up a lot of business by courting wedding parties.