Economic theory

[Sherry]

I've got to wonder if this is one of those areas we would know very little about and should be careful about jumping to conclusions. My wife has done weaving, I know very little. One thing I do know is that weaving patterns are a foundational part of the evolution of computer programming. The cards used in the industrial revolution became the cards of the 60s/70s. The point is that part was already in the cost so there would be no significant saving there.

I have been sewing since high school, & I find that working with high quality fabric is such a joy compared to lesser quality cloth. The tartan fabric used in trad kilts is very high quality. The weavers have somthing to be proud of.

Sherry

[Freedomlover]

I'm sure that it's done in plants where they just have to change a couple of variables to go from one tartan to another.

Well, not quite. The warp (lengthwise) threads have to be wound onto a beam in the order desired. Once the machine is set up properly the actual winding doesn't take that long. But most fabrics require that two, three or more beams (think of a giant spool of thread 5 feet long and 30 inches wide) be melded into one ready to weave 'loom beam'. Then the individual ends have to drawn through harness and heddles which are then fitted onto the loom as a package.

The filling (crosswise) threads are usually placed into a bobbin battery in the color order desired. The programming of the loom selects which bobbin is loaded in the shuttle (many modern looms don't have shuttles, but carry the end on a jet of air or water) and how many picks (individual passes of the color) the shuttle makes before selecting a different bobbin.

There is actually more to it than that, of course, but that is the gist of it. Many years ago I worked for Dan River Mills and had a hand in fabric design and production.

[MacConnachie]

Just imagine . . . .

The cost of a kilt made entirely by old "hand" methods, if all of that labor was done even at minimum wage. Start with the "wooleys" and their shearing, the sorting/grading, the cleaning, the carding, the spinning, the waulking and the dyeing (whichever of those came first) and looming/weaving. Now, you've got as far as having the fabric created. Now factor in the 20 to 40 hours of time to shape and hand-sew the kilt.

Is $500 then too much to ask for, for a traditionally made "tank?"

Of course, very few of the old-timers went through the complete process for the making of a philabeg, essentially from start to finish. The time required to actually "kilt up" into a great kilt in one of the acceptable methods is a scant fraction of the time required to achieve completion of the fabric.

Handmade tanks are functional pieces of artwork that can last generations, if properly cared for. I spent more on a used cedar chest/closet for storing woolen kilts and accessories than many people want to spend on their first kilt. It's a matter of choice, and protection of an "in-vestment," as it were.

The only kilt I've ever "made" is pleating a great kilt to put it on. My admiration and thanks goes out to all of you sewing kilts, whether it be for the first time for yourself or a family member, or you're a commercial kiltmaker and entrepreneur seeking to fill a demand-niche.

Some day, I may be able to afford an 8-yard custom-sewn kilt in a tartan of my choice. When I do, please be assured that the process will involve asking quite a number of people who have had this done just who they would recommend. My preference at the moment would be a retired military kiltmaker, or someone who has apprenticed to same. However, that could well change.

Right now, I'm content to seek out kilts that fit me pretty well that others have owned, or ordered and never picked up, or some variation on those themes. Any necessary modification of those kilts to fit me better can usually be effected with a bit of patience, and needle and thread. Any proposed alterations more serious than that has typically resulted in such kilts being traded, bartered, or given as gifts. I am about to obtain a Lochcarron kilt in the Duncan tartan which would be too small for me, but which will fit either my youngest brother, or one of two nephews now attending college. Hopefully, whoever ends up with that kilt will be very happy with the gift, and will wear it proudly for decades to come. I am obtaining it from the family of a young man who no longer has an interest in playing the pipes, and my out-of-pocket costs are less than $120. There are bargains in quality kilts out there -- it's just necessary to pay attention.

Regards to All,
Mac

[Jimmy Carbomb]

I have been sewing since high school, & I find that working with high quality fabric is such a joy compared to lesser quality cloth. The tartan fabric used in trad kilts is very high quality.

Sherry, that's an OUTSTANDING point that often goes overlooked in this. There's NOTHING like the feel of that fine wool, the smell of it when it's first pressed, and the weight when it's shipped! I LOVE working with it. It bends easily in the hips... it holds thread like nothing... it presses like a dream... and it just drapes like nothing else can.

FreedomLover... that was a great post! I toured a relatively local mill that I'm dealing with, to get their techniques and quality assurance. The cost of that machinery and the programs must be staggering. Gee... I wonder how they pay for all that technology?

[Alan H]

I'm making a few kilts because it's fun and I like making stuff. I'm also making them because my wife rebelled at the cost of new kilts. I want an X Marks kilt. She got humphy at the cost of the material and positively went ballistic at the cost of labour when I passed along what Matt wanted for a box-pleat kilt. Not that we don't UNDERSTAND why they cost what they do, just that if I'm going to want 4 or 5 of them, well...

It still bugs me that I'm not getting a kilt from Matt, BTW. I was bummed when that became clear. i'm STILL bummed about it, but anyway....

So I'm sewing kilts.

I fully admit that when I did the canvas one, I started with the USA Kilts philabeg as a model. My idea was "what the hay, let's see what comes out the other end" and I just went for it with no real hope of producing anything wearable. That's it's passably wearable is a huge plus, and honestly, I'm shocked. By the time it was done, though, what I had was seriously different from any of Rocky's kilts. But listen up... listen up, here because this is important.

By building a kilt rather like a USA Kilts philabeg...a pretty simple kilt.... I realize EXACTLY what a value that kilt is. Add up my hours of time plus the material, and a USA Kilts philabeg is a DEAL.

Now, about buying "cheap" kilts.

If I hadn't bought the two Stillwaters and the USA Kilts philabeg, I wouldn't have cared enough to want a "tank". Even though I'm going to make that "tank" myself, the point remains.

[RockyR]

By building a kilt rather like a USA Kilts philabeg...a pretty simple kilt.... I realize EXACTLY what a value that kilt is. Add up my hours of time plus the material, and a USA Kilts philabeg is a DEAL.

Now, about buying "cheap" kilts.

If I hadn't bought the two Stillwaters and the USA Kilts philabeg, I wouldn't have cared enough to want a "tank". Even though I'm going to make that "tank" myself, the point remains.

Alan brings up 2 good points that I agree with...

1. As I said in my opening statement in this thread... I don't mind if people take a hand at making their own kilts... it makes them appreciate the time I spend making kilts that much more. To get a finished product that looks good takes time and experience that many busy people may not realize it takes.

2. The second point is that the "wool kilt" business is not going to be killed by the "$100 Kilt Market". It will actually increase that market in time. Instead of having a potential customer get turned off to kilts ENTIRELY b/c of the entry cost ($500 +), they "get their feet wet" by buying a $100 kilt.

After they realize how great wearing a kilt is, they move up the ladder to a $200 or $300 or $500 kilt. Let's face it... $500 + is a BIG first step to take without knowing if you're going to wear a kilt more than 1 or 2 times... $100 (while no small chunk of change in itself) is a much more reasonable cost to shell out for the potential kilt wearer.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Alan brings up 2 good points that I agree with...

1. As I said in my opening statement in this thread... I don't mind if people take a hand at making their own kilts... it makes them appreciate the time I spend making kilts that much more. To get a finished product that looks good takes time and experience that many busy people may not realize it takes.

2. The second point is that the "wool kilt" business is not going to be killed by the "$100 Kilt Market". It will actually increase that market in time. Instead of having a potential customer get turned off to kilts ENTIRELY b/c of the entry cost ($500 +), they "get their feet wet" by buying a $100 kilt.

After they realize how great wearing a kilt is, they move up the ladder to a $200 or $300 or $500 kilt. Let's face it... $500 + is a BIG first step to take without knowing if you're going to wear a kilt more than 1 or 2 times... $100 (while no small chunk of change in itself) is a much more reasonable cost to shell out for the potential kilt wearer.

Rocky, I have to agree as well. As one who is trying his hand at making a kilt for the first time, and I have quite a bit of sewing experience, I have already determined that the amount of time to sew a kilt is much more than I thought it would be when I started. Barb states in the beginning of her book that a kilt is a very simple garment, from a construction perspective. And compared to a pair of mens slacks or dress shirt, it certainly is. However, being of simple construction does not make it easy or quick to make. I COULD have finished my first kilt already, but it would not have been a quality kilt, nor would I have been inclined to wear it. By reading Barb's book and the experiences of other on this board, I truly have an understanding of how a kilt is made and want to do my best in my own attempt.

Your second point is even more on target. If there had not been "budget" alternatives to a traditional tank, it is almost guaranteed I would never jave started wearing a kilt. While I MIGHT have been able to convince myself that $500 was worth it for something I would possibly wear once and then decide I did not like it, it is a surety that my wife would not have seen it that way! And truthfully, I doubt I would have either.

Now, about that semi-trad you are making for me...

[Iolaus]

I agree with Rocky. I wear my UKs about 50% of the time. I have a SW that I haven't worn yet because I want to have the front pleats re-pressed, (and I realised the importance of "accessorizing;" I WANT MY FREELANDER!) and if I like it I may get another SW or one of the "semi-traditional" casual kilts, but if I do become comfortable with the traditional look, I'm sure I will eventually start looking to upgrade, at least for a "fancy dress" kilt.

[Southern Breeze]

After much thought I've found a way to offset the price of kilts.Unfortunetly it only works if your married and have a family.Heres what you do-buy your son some pet sheep,your daughter a spinning wheel,your wife a loom and a sewing machine for yourself.Voila,no more overspending on kilts. :-)
On a more serious note,I've really enjoyed this thread so far.

[David Thornton]

My thread has wondered about a bit, but has been educational.

Now to set the record straight from my view.

Some of us came in the other way. I'll explain. When I discovered my heritage, and got interested in kilts, I went out to learn. Settled on a trad 8 yard hand sewn. I would have felt myself a traitor to buy less, well that and the fact that the guys in the sport kilts looked a little iffy. Love the tank (even if I still don't like the belt!). Then I purchased a 5 yard for casual use, I found I can get the 5 yard wool for about the price of most semi trad casuals. It's comfortable, weighs less, great for long days, even warm days it's great.
Then I was going to get a couple more 5 yard 16 oz casuals, and a military weight, Cameron or USMC. But realized I would have more in kilts than in the remainder of my closest combined. So I started looking at all kilts. That's when I discovered the recent surge in kilt purchasea and started thinking about economic principle.

Someone is going to figure out how to deliver a custom but with possibly limited options at a very nice price break. Happens with every product. Won't hurt the custom hand mades and won't hurt the ****'s either. But will bring thousands of new kilt wearers into the fold.

Rocky, thanks for your input. I'm trying to warm to your kilt. Jeff, I guess I'll have to see what Santa does, can't make myself buy one yet.

Hey, enjoy everyone. Now if Orange would just sell me his tweed kilt jacket..

David