Banned From a Pub in Aberdeen

[macwilkin]

My position is that the identity of the kilt is shifting from the national dress of Scotland to a garment for the everyman.

As long as individuals wear the kilt as a symbol of their Scottish heritage, then the kilt will always be the national dress of Scotland. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, of course, but a garment with the rich history and tradition like a kilt has cannot be stripped of its title overnight, though I do understand the point you're trying to make.

Cheers,

Todd

[Sherry]

I believe that a lot is missing from the news report, however we have had similar events in the US. About 10 years ago in Peachtree City, GA, a high school senior was banned from attending his prom while wearing a kilt. ...

It happened again just last spring:
http://www.kiltmen.com/forums/cgi-bi...ames;read=4454
http://www.clanntartan.org/greywolf/...30a6c05ec8b794

I has got to do more with ignorance & lack of understanding in these cases, I think. I have a feeling that that particular superintendent has been educated. :grin:

Sherry

[Sherry]

Yes, the heritage will always be Scottish, which brings up an interesting point. There is controversy today over who invented the kilt -- a couple theories out there are that it was invented by an Englishman, or brought in by Norsemen. But these theories mean nothing at all about national dress because the Scots themselves effectively "owned" the kilt.

...

How did you miss my other thread about this? Tsk, tsk.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=13807

Also, this site has a very nice history of the kilt:
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com...ish/index.html
You have to use the side menu to access the pages on the evolution of the kilt.

Sherry

[Archangel]

I'm going to suggest that most of North Americans are wandering into something they are unfamiliar with. It is easy to underestimate the amount of recreational violence attached to soccer in the UK. The equivalent context would be gang colours: it seems clear that that is the reason for the ban. Last time I visited, my uncle made a point of checking me over to make sure that I had no team colours on for any game that day. It is a very intense culture when it comes to that sport.
The kilt in question was attached to the game on, the indications that an un-related kilt would have been acceptable.

[Hosehead]

It is a very intense culture when it comes to that sport.

Even though I am also a North American, I wholeheartedly agree. Just ask the folks in the North of Ireland. Even though they are Scottish teams, Celtic and Rangers have come to be identified with political affiliation in Northern Ireland. The wearing of the 'Hoops' in the wrong neighbourhood can lead to violent consequences. I did not realise how strong these feelings were until I took my first trip to Derry and Belfast.

Great topic!

KL

[Raphael]

I'm going to suggest that most of North Americans are wandering into something they are unfamiliar with. It is easy to underestimate the amount of recreational violence attached to soccer in the UK. The equivalent context would be gang colours: it seems clear that that is the reason for the ban. Last time I visited, my uncle made a point of checking me over to make sure that I had no team colours on for any game that day. It is a very intense culture when it comes to that sport.
The kilt in question was attached to the game on, the indications that an un-related kilt would have been acceptable.

spot on, Archangel. Football/soccer is not a sport, but a religion for lots of people. The rivalries are very intense and fights break out because of the supporters' passion.

For Example, the Rivalry between Manchester United and Arsenal is unreal. Extra officers will be brought in before every match in fear of the drunken hooligans. There will be blood bath every time they meet. This is not just for the fans, the players and management are often found in the middle of lots of scrambles as well. A fight almost broke out between the captains when they were getting ready to enter the field.

[Hamish]

Even though I am also a North American, I wholeheartedly agree. Just ask the folks in the North of Ireland. Even though they are Scottish teams, Celtic and Rangers have come to be identified with political affiliation in Northern Ireland. The wearing of the 'Hoops' in the wrong neighbourhood can lead to violent consequences. I did not realise how strong these feelings were until I took my first trip to Derry and Belfast.

Great topic!

KL

Just one reason why I would never dream of wearing my 'Celtic' supporters' kilt out in public, especially in Scotland - and I'm not looking for any other reasons, thank you brothers! ;)

Although not a football fan by any stretch of the imagination, I am proud to have this very well-made, woollen kilt (and accessories) in my Kilt Kollection. It came from www.clubkilts.com eighteen months ago.

[An t-Ileach]

...Even though they are Scottish teams, Celtic and Rangers have come to be identified with political affiliation in Northern Ireland. The wearing of the 'Hoops' in the wrong neighbourhood can lead to violent consequences....
KL

You have to be careful how you speak, and where you want to go on the buses in Glasgow during a Rangers-Celtic match: you daren't take a ticket for Ibrox Park from certain parts of the city, or to Parkhead (whatever it's called now) from others. If you're asked, apparently innocently, 'what's your favourite colour?' you'd better be aware where you are - if it's really green, you'd better lie in some parts of Glasgow. It's almost as intense in Edinburgh over Hearts and Hibernians. Even up in the Islands, if someone wears a Celtic shirt/colours they're automatically marked as a Papist; so you'll find predominantly Rangers colours on the Presbyterian/Free Kirk islands and so on.

I think it's all a bit ridiculous - but then I'm a rugby man myself. Now there's a game...

[highlander_Daz]

The Kilt in question wasnt a rangers/celtic related item as far as the article suggests the supporter was a "Tartan Army" footsoldier normally any Kilt will suffice along with a Scotland shirt and maybe a glengarry or a tam is the preffered uniform of the Tartan army.

The rivalry between celtic and Rangers is related to Northern Ireland but only because Bigotary and urban myth allows it to be, many cathoilics support Rangers and non catholics (like myself) support Celtic, Celtic was originally founded for the large numbers of Irish that settled in Glasgow in the late 1880s (who happened to be catholics). the "old firm" causes significant disruption across the west of Scotland on match days.

The Kilt will always be associated with Scotland no matter who the latest name put forward as the inventor is, just the same as the "10 gallon" hat will always be associated with the US even if it was found that a chinaman/japanese/burmese/laplander/scot had actually invented it.

Establishments in the UK can impose dress codes as a condition of entry to any club. I doubt I would be allwed in a club in the US dressed in chaps 10 gallon hat and a gun belt with six guns. I would be equally unsuprised if I was barred from a Frence nightclub wearing a striped sweater , beret and onion necklace and riding a bicycle.

[Frank]

Having lived in Glasgow for 27 years - I can confirm that sadly, a staggeringly proportion of Glasgow people (of all social classes) are seemingly content to subjugate their identity to either one of the two prevailing political dogmas of
Northern Ireland. Although the Scottish Parliament has identified this particular curse as a historical legacy not worth preserving and is attempting to eliminate religious bigotry at all levels, football does play its part by serving as a focus. For many - especially among the less affluent, the tribal identity afforded by their choice of soccer team appears to engender a sense of validation and achievement. In practice, this leads to generations being taught to hate each other for no reason and even more sadly, without question. Glaswegians are among the friendliest and most hospitable people on the planet but football + alcohol + inbred division = exceedingly unpleasant behaviour.

I've a feeling that may be what was trying to be avoided by the publican in question here, even allowing for the fact that the football game was an international. Many bars and pubs will not wish to attract the football clientele simply because of the behavioural problems associated with soccer fans. I'm guessing here, but I think the kilt was seen by the pub staff as merely being an indicator of the type of customer seeking entry - not as an item of clothing which in itself was objectionable. I have to say though that the quotes from the potential customer don't indicate that he was in anyway rowdy or likely to misbehave. If of course the chap in question had a full evening outfit on, I'd imagine he would have been admitted.

Having worked in many pubs in Glasgow (but sadly not Aberdeen) over the years (as a musician), I can assure you that those pubs which don't permit football wear or team colours are more likely to be at the civilised end of the social spectrum. And oddly enough where you'd normally be most likely to encounter a kilted clientele....

Frank