I LOVE 'Em!! J'Dez Underkilts

[Bob C]

Bear makes some good points, that should not be lost.

The garments that JDEZ markets as kilts are not kilts. They're not close.

Calling such things "kilts" takes away from the credibility that we, as kilt-wearers, demand. Wearing womens' underwear does, too, and that exactly what those slips are.

I'm not worried about X-Marks becoming a cross-dressing site, so I think Bear is over-reacting, a bit. Still, I understand his concern.

[Riverkilt]

Boy, now I'm confused...even double checked the J'Dez website. They call the garment they offer an "underkilt"....don't see it called a kilt anywhere.

Calling underpants underpants doesn't make them pants.

Calling underkilts underkilts doesn't make them kilts.

Someone help me out here where does J'Dez refer to the product they call underkilts as kilts?

Ron

[bear]

First, nobody has offended me. Not even JDEZ.
My concern is for this site. I honestly don't give a rat's what you guys wear under your kilts.

Ignore my comments. People seem to think I rant for no reason. Nobody listened to a whole bunch of us at Tom's when we tried to keep that site at least half kilts. Now look at Tom's.
Tom's wasn't all that different from this site. When the Atrium went tranny, Tom's was swamped with skirters and they abused the kilters right out of the place. You couldn't say kilt without someone giving you crap for not calling it a skirt.
If you think this place is somehow invulnerable, you're wrong.

[Bob C]

Someone help me out here where does J'Dez refer to the product they call underkilts as kilts?

Ron

I was not referring to the "underkilt" in that instance. I was referring to things such as this: http://www.jdez.com/men/20101.html

[Riverkilt]

I hear you Bear. I've watched the UK kilt board degenerate into a debating society about meaningless issues unrelated to kilts.

Just having trouble figuring how cutting the crotch out of jocky shorts to make an underkilt in the same way UK's Steve cut the crotch out of his jeans to make a Utillikilt is gonna lead to the downfall of this board.

For what its worth, anyone who wanted to wear an underkilt as a skirt would be arrested for indecent exposure the first time they sat down or bent over. The garments are designed as a type of underwear. They fail completely as outerwear.

Ron

[Riverkilt]

Thanks for that clarification Bob.

Did I miss something? Thought J'Dez was just telling us about the underkilt.

Kinda looks like that Spartan thing from Utilikilts that they call a "Spartan Utilikilt....only a bit shorter.

But hey, I ain't scared. If cross dressers and gender benders have the ability to destroy this board then there weren't much here worth saving.

My sense is the foundation of this board is strongly rooted and can withstand the various insanities that drift in from time to time...as it has before, and will again.

The strength of this board is in the members. The strength of the members is in this board.

Bring on the skirted hordes of girlie men...let us to war!

Bear, you're point!

Ron

[Iolaus]

Bring on the skirted hordes of girlie men...let us to war!

Bear, you're point!

Ron

From what I understand, the war was what instigated the development of this site. Do we really want to repeat history?

I understand Bear's point. I'm not ready to draw a line in the sand, but a line will have to be drawn at some point. I think Bear may be drawing it here, with this manufacturer, because J'Dez is trying to pass off feminine style clothing as men's wear in the other lines he sells, and this is simply a renaming of a traditionally feminine undergarment. Perhaps if he had come to the kilt-wearing community for suggestions, and developed something on our recommendations that addressed our needs and and took into account our preferences (such as that loincloth idea someone had) then he might have gotten a better reception.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire for an undergarment of some kind, but part of the premise for this site is to define the masculine from the feminie, and if when shown a picture of the "underkilt, my wife said "That's a slip," then I'd say it's awfully close to the line.

[cavscout]

I think we actually have two different issues here that are being meshed into one.

I don't think the problem is so much with the under grament which started this thread. As has been mentioned earlier, men have in the past worn under garments with a kilt for many reasons and none of them in an effort to feminise the kilt.

I think the problem really starts when you look at the rest of JDEZ's product line. No two ways about it, those are not kilts and people who wear them are not portraying a masculine image. You won't see those guys in the whiskey commercials shared in another thread It's obvious to everyone that those garments won't find much acceptance here even if the were called "Free Beer". This is not an attack on JDEZ or those who buy their products. Just an observation and opinion.

Just as you won't get much appreciation for a Low-Rider style Hooptie on a 4X4 forum, an injection of feminine topics here will draw the same venom. They both may be automobiles but the one absolutely "ain't" like the other.

Cordially and respectfully yours,

[Iolaus]

Hey Ron, how do you think the fabric would react (curling or fraying, etc.) if you were to run a slit up the front and back of each thigh, effectively turning it into four almost seperate peices?

[JDEZ]

Hey Ron, how do you think the fabric would react (curling or fraying, etc.) if you were to run a slit up the front and back of each thigh, effectively turning it into four almost seperate peices?

Iolaus, we can make the underkilt concept with side cuts (as suggested by several folks on this forum). Since we are using 100% cotton, the edges may curl a bit if not ironed. We can possibly prevent the vertical edge curling by installing binding material. It would increase cost a bit, but would make a real quality finished garment. One possible configuration that is under consideration is the following:



Another option is to do what some have suggested in making a basic loincloth garment. Or even to do something modular as suggested by Cavscout. I found an interesting article on such a garment made in Japan. Interesting read - Gives some history and discusses current market growth: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/...20050603f1.htm

As for Bear's comments, I am in agreement with his position on the need to maintain a separation from the cross-dressing community. It would be more difficult to gain public acceptance of kilts, sarongs, and the like if they were associated with specific sub-cultures. We do not desire to cater to these markets either. And I have so much as stated so on the Tom's Cafe forum where I have suggested that there were other places on the Internet more appropriate for such things.

My wife and I have traveled to many parts of the world and have had the fortune to experience some foreign cultures that enjoy the same freedom as the Scots with their respective non-bifurcated garments. They are not cross-dressers or transvestites. (Although we have seen some amusing sights in our travels - but that's a story for another day) I would no further walk up to a burly Somoan and tell him he was wearing a girly skirt, than I would to a heavy fisted Scotsman. -I am sure that there is an unpleasant tropical translation for the Glasgow kiss.

My point is that my wife and I happen to enjoy warm tropical environments. This was the influence in developing some of our products. I also like learning about other cultures and time periods. The Scots were, of course, not the only culture to wear non-bifurcated garments. There are many cultures that now wear (or have historically worn) non-bifurcated garments. The middle east, Thailand, Polynesia, Africa, and even ancient Greece and Rome all have interesting and practical applications of clothing for men and women throughout the ages. I would like to join other forums too like "xMarkstheTahitian.com" or the "TogaCafe.com" but I cant seem to find them.

I also like to experiment with combining and modernizing ideas. Some will work, some will not. But I do want to state for the record: we are not about making products for cross-dressers. I do not have any interest in serving that market. We are about making comfortable clothing for normal people - predominately for warm weather and exercise/beach/spa/resort applications. I realize that our current product line does not necessarily relate to this forum. (and my interpretation of "normal" might be a bit skewed to the adventurous and non-intimidated types). But since others have often mention our products, I figured I better comment on what we are trying to do. The one thing that some of you traditional kilt wearers might appreciate about our products is that they might make traditional kilts seem a bit more acceptable to the average joe public.

-- Dave