Kilts Scottish only??

[An t-Ileach]

Matt wrote

In the twentieth century, you have the kilt being adopted by Cornish nationalists, Welsh nationalists, etc., as well as many Irish, as a way of identifying themselves as "celtic" (read, non-English), primarily (in my opinion) because the kilt was such an easily recongizable "celtic" form of clothing.

I think that this establishes it. But, marketing ploys aside, I think it's moving on from here even. There's a rising level of desire to find a general Celtic identity - which may well be separate from the nationalisms - and the kilt is becoming its outward manifestation.

This seems to be taking place across the Celtic home nations of the British Isles (Scotland, Wales, RoI and NI, Cornwall, and IoM) and even gaining ground in Brittany and Galicia. What the reasons for this may be would need a political scientist to examine - probably it's got something about not wishing to disappear into amorphous pan-national political arrangements.

Anyway, if they want to adopt the kilt that's fine by me, as long as it is recognised as being an import from the Scottish highlands and islands - a gesture to some sort of pan-celtic identity - and not try and make of it something that it's not.

[Kiltedmusiclover]

Not only has Mac researched this topic, he has also written a book that covers a good bit of this thread. I highly recommend it.


http://albanach.org/books.htm

You can read an excerpt of his book here:
http://www.scottishtartans.org/kilt.html

[Archangel]

I feel like Groundskeeper Willie: "aw this nicey-nice blather and no scrappin! an ye call yersel kilted?!"


(actually I hate writing in brogue, it's so Brigadoon, forgive me.)

[KiltedManxman]

I found this quite interesting. From the Introduction to the book

Folk Lore of the Isle of Man by A. W. MOOD E, M.A (1891)

"A sun-bonnet was substituted for the mob cap in the summer, but frequently no cap at all was worn in the house, and when they went out they wrapped themselves in the plaid or shawl, which Bishop Merick called their winding sheet. It seems probable that in early days, before the time of English rule, the men wore the Scotch kilt, which at that time was worn by both Scotch and Irish. It must be remembered that all these garments we have mentioned were made either at home, or in the immediate vicinity of it. "

The above quote is from a Scot named Campbell who visisted the Isle of Man in 1860. I think this would challenge the idea that the kilt was not worn by the Manx prior to the 20th century. It also shows that a 19th century Scot considered the kilt to be the attire of Scots and the Irish. Again, the notion of the kilt being "pan-Celtic" is put forward by a Scot and is not a relatively recent idea.

Of Campbell the author writes:

"Campbell, the editor of the "Popular Tales of the West Highlands," who visited the Island in 1860, was a singularly competent observer"

There are a number of writings that attribute the origin of the kilt to the "kjilt", which means "pleat" in old Norse. It was a pleated unbifurcated garment worn by the ancient Vikings.

http://kilt.iqnaut.net/

There are ancient Manx Gaelic writings that descirbe the king of the Norse, and then the IOM, as wearing the kjilt as far back as the 11th century. It is also said that the warriors, and likely civilian men, also wore the "kjilt" on the IOM. I can't seem to find the exact reference to this at the moment but will look further for it.

Submitted with all due civilty and respect.
Kevin

[An t-Ileach]

KiltedManxMan has got me thinking - given that the Lordship of the Isles was centred on the Island of Islay - wasn't its full title something like the "Lordship of the Isles and the Kingdom of Man"? Wouldn't this, then, bracket the Isle of Man with the southern Hebrides, and also Antrim, and thus likely establish a possibility of their wearing the breacan feileadh, as the notion of the "lordship of the Isles" was still very much alive when the Stuarts gave the Island of Islay to the Campbells of Cawdor in 1614, even though the sequestration had taken place over 100 years earlier?

[KiltedManxman]

Actually, The Isle of Man has been self governing for over 1000 years. It has the world's oldest and longest continuously sitting parliament - Tynwald.

I am personally satisfied that my limited research well supports my assertion that the kilt is part of my heritage as a Manxman. As we are striving for accuracy and to establish if it is appropriate for the Irish (and Manx in my case) to make such statements, the evidence I have presented should be sufficient to allow for such, IMHO.

Blessings to all,
Kevin

[Riverkilt]

And verily it came to pass that early in the year 2004 at a Ren Faire an aging old man in what had been Azatlan, then Old Mexico, now Arizona gazed upon a strange but attractive unbifurcated garment with an embroidered pocket that directed him to the Internet where he became Utilikilted. He then developed a strong affliction causing him to offer up his cash unto a host of sewers of kilts and to forsake his bifurcated garments and go forth among his fellows walking in freedom.

All unbifurcated history before this time is irrelevent, though whatever it may truely be he salutes with gratitude.

Ron

[Ruanaidh]

I have enough Celtic blood (Irish, Scots-Irish, Welsh and Breton) to, IMHO, justify the wearing of the kilt. We know that the modern kilt is the national garment of Scotland but it is also a symbol of freedom and "Celticness" of people every where. Whenever the Bretons want to remind Paris that there is more than one heritage in France, they bring out the kilts and pipes. Strikes fear in bureaucratic hearts every time!
My Best To All,
VJ

[macwilkin]

I found this quite interesting. From the Introduction to the book

Folk Lore of the Isle of Man by A. W. MOOD E, M.A (1891)

"A sun-bonnet was substituted for the mob cap in the summer, but frequently no cap at all was worn in the house, and when they went out they wrapped themselves in the plaid or shawl, which Bishop Merick called their winding sheet. It seems probable that in early days, before the time of English rule, the men wore the Scotch kilt, which at that time was worn by both Scotch and Irish. It must be remembered that all these garments we have mentioned were made either at home, or in the immediate vicinity of it. "

The above quote is from a Scot named Campbell who visisted the Isle of Man in 1860. I think this would challenge the idea that the kilt was not worn by the Manx prior to the 20th century. It also shows that a 19th century Scot considered the kilt to be the attire of Scots and the Irish. Again, the notion of the kilt being "pan-Celtic" is put forward by a Scot and is not a relatively recent idea.

Of Campbell the author writes:

"Campbell, the editor of the "Popular Tales of the West Highlands," who visited the Island in 1860, was a singularly competent observer"

There are a number of writings that attribute the origin of the kilt to the "kjilt", which means "pleat" in old Norse. It was a pleated unbifurcated garment worn by the ancient Vikings.

http://kilt.iqnaut.net/

There are ancient Manx Gaelic writings that descirbe the king of the Norse, and then the IOM, as wearing the kjilt as far back as the 11th century. It is also said that the warriors, and likely civilian men, also wore the "kjilt" on the IOM. I can't seem to find the exact reference to this at the moment but will look further for it.

Submitted with all due civilty and respect.
Kevin

Kevin,

But, re-read Mr. Campbell's comment: a Scotch kilt. Not a Manx kilt. Also, note the word "probable". After reading this, I really don't see any evidence that the Manx did wear kilts, just speculation.

Matt is not saying that the other Celtic nations may not wear kilts, just that they cannot claim to be the orginators of the kilt, or that the kilt is an "ancient" garment for the Manx, Welsh, or even the Irish.

However, there is very good evidence that the kilt was adopted by various Celtic nationalist movements, such as the Bretons in France, the Welsh, Cornish, and most notably the Irish. There are several members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood and other Irish nationalist organizations, for instance, in the 19th century that adopted the kilt as Irish "national" dress. Patrick Pearse, for instance, tried to adopt the kilt as the uniform for his boys school (his students were tormented by the local Irish students, who obviously weren't aware that they were wearing Irish "national dress"!) The Welsh National Tartan, designed in the 1960's, was also an off-shoot of a revised feeling in "Welshness". Same with the Cornish tartans.

Matt has done his research, fellas. He's not saying you're "wrong" in wearing the kilt as a symbol of your heritage, just that the adoption of the kilt by other Celtic nations isn't as old as some would like to believe. If you're wearing a Manx National, Welsh National, Breton National, etc. tartan kilt, then you are wearing something (the tartan) as a symbol of your heritage.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, after all.

Cheers,

Todd

[KiltedManxman]

Just to be clear - I am certainly not trying to deny anyone the wearing of the kilt, nor to suggest that there should be some qualiifcation of heritage to wear it. I encourage all men everywhere to wear the kilt proudly, regardless of ethnicity.

I did notice that Campbell said it was "likely" but he flatly stated "which at that time was worn by both Scotch and Irish". He sees the kilt as being the popular, (though perhaps not national) dress of the Irish as well. I will try to find the reference to the kjlit in ancient Mann, but am leaving in a few hours and may not get to it for a couple of weeks. I have seen a few references to this in my Manx literature, so I personally think there is SOME evidence that the a form of the pleated kilt was worn in ancient times by the Manx and Norse. I am not, however trying to attribute the origin of the kilt to the Manx. It matters little to me, really.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but what I am responding to is the apparent denial that it is correct for any but the Scots to claim the kilt as part of their heritage, or even an ancient garment. Again, I am not trying to say that the Manx "invented" the kilt or any such thing. Only that it was worn by the Manx prior to recent times, at least in the form of the kjilt. My Manx ancestors were likely wearing the kilt before my American Grandpappy's wore Levi's. Though I have no photos of them doing so, I don't think many Scots would have such hard evidence of there direct ancestors wearing the kilt either. But it is OK for them to claim it as part of there heritage becasue it is "likely" that they did. If we are to apply the same logic and standard to the Irish and Manx, then what reason is there that we should not say so as well?

So, back to the original question - is it OK to claim the kilt as part of my heritage? I think so. It is recognized as the national dress of Scotland, and I am not trying to take away from that. But if my ancestors also wore the kilt am I precluded from saying so because the Scots have made claim to it and popularized it in modern times?

Again, it was put forth earlier that accuaracy was needed to arrive at an answer to the question. It was also said that no credible evidence exists that the kilt was worn in ancient times or anyone prior to the Scots.

I respect Mac's scholarship, but nobody knows everything and being an expert does not mean that one has read every word ever written on a subject. "Experts" may know a lot, but a scholar will continue to consider new data as it comes to there attention, as their motive should be to arrive at an objective conclusion, based on fact. We can all learn something. I have learned plenty from the great people who post here and from Mac. I like to think that I am teachable as well, and certainly open to correction. But I don't take what anyone says as the last word when I have seen evidence that indicates otherwise.

With humble reverence,
Kevin