Black Watch Tartan

[James]

I'm having a senior moment-there was a thread on this subject-and now I cannot find it.

There was some debate regarding the connection between the 42nd Regimental Tartan and the Clan Robertson.

In the Clan Donnachaidh Annual for 2000, it was stated that The Black Watch chose the Robertson Tartan as the regiment was raised in Robertson territory, and the members of the various independent companies discarded their own tartans which belonged to their territories, in favour of wearing the uniform tartan [Robertson].

Having said that, there is the question of the red and white stripes in the present Robertson Hunting, so there will aways be arguments, and I doubt if there can be a definitive answer. For without doubt there are tartans which have been lost, and others which have mutated.

Too I could imagine a situation where on the grounds of economy-to be different - it was decided to drop the stripes: but that is imagination.

Having said that, linking the area in which the Regiment was raised to the Clan suggests that on the balance of probability there is some connection between the Clan and the Regimental Tartans.

My personal view on such matters, is that unless actual records from the period can be found, together with the sealed unform patterns: such arguments can only be on the balance of probability: rather than provenance.

James

[macwilkin]

I'm having a senior moment-there was a thread on this subject-and now I cannot find it.

There was some debate regarding the connection between the 42nd Regimental Tartan and the Clan Robertson.

In the Clan Donnachaidh Annual for 2000, it was stated that The Black Watch chose the Robertson Tartan as the regiment was raised in Robertson territory, and the members of the various independent companies discarded their own tartans which belonged to their territories, in favour of wearing the uniform tartan [Robertson].

Having said that, there is the question of the red and white stripes in the present Robertson Hunting, so there will aways be arguments, and I doubt if there can be a definitive answer. For without doubt there are tartans which have been lost, and others which have mutated.

Too I could imagine a situation where on the grounds of economy-to be different - it was decided to drop the stripes: but that is imagination.

Having said that, linking the area in which the Regiment was raised to the Clan suggests that on the balance of probability there is some connection between the Clan and the Regimental Tartans.

My personal view on such matters, is that unless actual records from the period can be found, together with the sealed unform patterns: such arguments can only be on the balance of probability: rather than provenance.

James

James,

Other clans have "claimed" the Government Sett as well; besides the well-known Campbells, the Grants and Munros were also instrumental in the formation of the Independent Highland Companies, which became the Royal Highland Regiment -- not to mention the Sutherlands and the Mackays.

The Grants today, for example, wear the Government Sett as their hunting tartan.

I think your last paragraph is spot on! :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Todd

[Luke MacGillie]

Actually there is correspondence from the period, Ive seen it quoted, but have not been able to get my hands on actual copies. My understanding is that there was one particular weaver that supplied the govt sett. This weaver was not able to supply tartan when the 78th was raised in 1757.

Another interesting tidbit. From 1745 to 1787 General,Lord John Murray was the Col of the Black Watch. In 1751 Morier painted a grenadier of the regiment wearing a belted plaid with a red overstripe. There is some evidence that both Bns of the regiment wore this red overstrip in their little kilts but only the Grenadier companies in the great kilt. Is not the current Murray tartan BW with a red overstripe?

[macwilkin]

Actually there is correspondence from the period, Ive seen it quoted, but have not been able to get my hands on actual copies. My understanding is that there was one particular weaver that supplied the govt sett. This weaver was not able to supply tartan when the 78th was raised in 1757.

Another interesting tidbit. From 1745 to 1787 General,Lord John Murray was the Col of the Black Watch. In 1751 Morier painted a grenadier of the regiment wearing a belted plaid with a red overstripe. There is some evidence that both Bns of the regiment wore this red overstrip in their little kilts but only the Grenadier companies in the great kilt. Is not the current Murray tartan BW with a red overstripe?

From T.F. Mills's "Regiments of the British Army" page:

"Murray of Atholl", or "green Murray" probably originated ca. 1777 as the government sett differenced with two red overstripes for the 77th Highlanders (Lord Murray's Atholl Highlanders). Also known as District of Atholl tartan. This was a variation on the single red overstripe introduced by Lord John Murray in 1746 for grenadiers of 43rd Highlanders when he was Colonel of the regiment.

-- http://www.regiments.org/tradition/tartans/murray-a.htm

Cheers,

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

James D Scarlett has a little book out called The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: A Re-Appraisal , published by Partizan Press in 2003. In it, he re-evaluates all the available evidence concerning the origin of the Black Watch tartan, and comes to some new conclusions. I'll quote a bit from his epilogue:

"...I have reached the conclusions that the dark tartans were a military innovation with the intention, at least in part, that they should be entirely distinct from the general run of clan patterns, that the re-organized Highland Independant Companies in 1725 wore their own individual patterns that were designed within a regulated framework and later developed into a standard pattern worn by all the Companies and the 43rd Regiment which embodied them, that the Black Watch tartan was the outcome of a long period of development and did not come into use until some ten years later than is generally supposed."

What he means by this is that in 1725 all the Highland Independant Companies wore their own tartans. The tartans were uniform within one Comapany, but each was distinct from the other. These were military tartans -- not clan tartans, as such a notion did not exist at the time -- and even though they were different form one another, he shows that they had to fit certain criteria ("you can have any tartan you like, so long as it is blue, black and green" etc.).

He goes on to show that when these Companies were amalgamated into the 43rd Regiment (later named the 42nd) they all wore one tartan, which he hypothetically calls the 43rd tartan. Exact records of this tartan are lost, but from the available evidence he deduces that it was something rather like the Campbell of Cawdor (aka Argyll District) tartan, only with a single black line on the green.

He then shows how this tartan underwent some alteration to become what we know as the Black Watch tartan, and that this change took place around 1749, not 1739 as was previously assumed. And, specifically, the doubling of the black lines on every other blue ground was unique to the Black Watch and made this tartan quite distinct, effectively doubling the sett repeat, and opening up the possibility of much more differentiation by adding simple overchecks -- it was also at this time that the idea of raising other Regiments was occurring, and having a single "government tartan" that they could alter was an effective means of outfitting the new Regiments.

What is important here is that, since the Black Watch tartan was a new creation (and all of Jamie's research would indicate that it is, the various claims of the Clans notwithstanding) then any tartan based upon the Black Watch (Gordon, MacKenzie, Robertson, etc) would by necessity have to come after it.

Now, I have not seen the evidence used to support the claim that the Black Watch tartan was actually derived from the Hunting Robertson, so I cannot comment on it, but I have serious reservations. To begin with, it flies in the face of all of Jamie's recent research (which is based on a long life of studying historic tartans). Second, to my knoweldge the earliest date we have for the Hunting Robertson is 1803, when it was supposedly worn by the newly raised Loyal Clan Donnachie Volunteers. But I think the oldest actual sample we have comes from the Cockburn Collection, which dates from 1810-1815.

Regardless of its origin, we know that the Black Watch tartan was being used at least by 1749. So, if we are to take seriously the claim that the Hunting Robertson was around first, and that the Black Watch was derived from it, then we need to fill in that gap of more than 50 years. Some evidence would need to be presented that the Hunting Robertson patten was in use prior to 1749.

If anyone is interested in getting Jamie's book on military tartans, you can get it from www.cavalierbooks.com.

Aye,
Matt

[Luke MacGillie]

Thanks Matt, that book is on my to get list! I had seen it quoted a couple of other places and have not got around to getting it.

Dont suppose you could quote what he says, if anything, regarding Fraser's tartan?

Edited to say: Thats the tartan of Fraser's Highlanders ca 1757, not the Fraser tartan in general

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The book is at home and I'm at work, so for the moment, no I can't! :-) But he does have some information about that tartan. I've got a hot date tonight so it might be tomorrow before I can get you any information.

Aye,
Matt

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Jamie Scarlett's main focus of this little book is the origin of the Black Watch tartan, as we know it, so he doesn't include a lot of information on other military tartans, except where they relate to the Black Watch. He does make a brief mention of Fraser, though.

The Fraser tartan he is talking about is the same sett as the Black Watch, only with some major color changes. He treats it, MacLachlan, and MacNab together, as tartans he calls "Red Watch" setts, and as clan tartans that would seem to have a military origins, because of their relation to the Black Watch. He writes:

"Our Fraser tartan is seemingly* well grounded as having been worn by the 71st (Fraser's) Highlanders in North America... Clearly, for those who were sufficiently determined and far enough away from Whitehall, there were ways of circumventing the regulations, so should we perhaps look for the origins of these MacLachlan and MacNab tartans during the wars on the North American continent?"

He leaves that question unanswered. Maybe his speculation will lead to further research by eighteenth century military historians.

*His use of the word "seemingly" here is qualified in a footnote. He does not intend to imply disbelief with this term, but rather the opposite. In most tartan matters, he writes, "seemingly" is about the nearest we can get to certainty.

Aye,
Matt

[Luke MacGillie]

Thanks Matt, Ive got to get that book!

[Luke MacGillie]

So Amazon does not have The Origins and Development of Military Tartans: A Re-Appraisal, so any clues as to where I can find a copy? Matt do you keep it in stock at the museum?

Luke