Question for Hamish - White Dress Shirts

[Cawdorian]

I am sure Hamish will weigh in when he gets time, don't forget there is a six or seven hour time difference between the Eastern US and England.

[Andrew Breecher]

I know that white tie is only wing collar, but I thought the days of wing collars only being worn for white tie events ended about the same time Packard closed the factory doors. I suspect that the proliferation of wing collars for formal events began with the rental clothing industry [...]

As a matter of fact, the tuxedo itself began as a casual coat when it was conceived at the Tuxedo Club in downstate New York. Because it didn't have tails it couldn't have been considered formal, but it worked as a dinner jacket. Over time, as we've stopped wearing coats with tails at all, the elegant tuxedo jacket has become the epitome of formal wear.

Andrew.

[flyv65]

Thank you, Andrew; I'm constantly amazed at the breadth of knowledge we have access to on this board!

Bryan...only good at fishing, it seems...

[Sherry]

Ditto Bryan. How very interesting!Sherry

[Hamish]

Ok! OK Boys, don't panic! I am here..... My Goodness, a guy cannot even have a day off from his computer without folks thinking up all manner of reasons for his absence! ;)

No, I have not been writing 'my' book and nor were there any ulterior motives for my not being with you - I threw a party at lunchtime today for my dear neighbour who is moving away. So yesterday and last evening were spent in earnest preparation for it, leaving no time for this computer thingy. OK?

Now, to Jim's question:
I suspect you have had many good, honest and suitable answers already Jim, which is probably just as well because I do not feel qualified to give you an answer! The truth is, there is such a language difference between us that I truly do not follow much of this thread. For example, I have no idea what a "spread collar" is nor what "French cuffs" are. (I certainly DO know what button-down collars are and I detest them - never was there a greater waste of good buttons, for no reason that I can think of, in the history of mankind!!! )

Your question referred to the wearing of a "Dress Shirt" with a black Argyll jacket. Well, on this side of the pond a Dress Shirt is what one would wear with black bow-tie and a Prince Charlie or Dinner jacket (Tux to you guys). Possibly it would have a slightly decorated or pleated front with the buttons hidden from sight. I think you are referring to what we call a business shirt. Anyway, to the point: were I to be wearing my black Crail jacket (which is very similar to an Argyll), I would choose an absolutely plain white business shirt - not a pleat-fronted Dress Shirt - and I would wear it with the sleeves down so that a little white cuff showed beyond the jacket sleeve. There has been talk here of cuff-links. Some business shirts have buttons AND provision for cuff-links, others have one or the other. With an Argyll (or Crail) jacket, for the event you mention, I should prefer to use the buttons and would save my gorgeous, dressy cuff-links for wear with my Prince Charlie at a more formal event.

My plain tie would be of wool and would pick up one of the colours in the kilt's tartan - and I would NOT decorate it with tie-bars, tie-chains or any other form of jewellery. Remember, the kilt is spectacular in its own right - it has no need to compete with other items of adornment, unless one is dressing to the nines with the traditional accessories of full Highland Evening Dress.

My apologies for my tardy response to your query, and I trust I at least picked up the correct gist of it.

Does anyone know if there is an American-English/English-American Dictionary in print? I think I could do with a copy!;)

[Hamish]

I cant stand button down collars ! And I bet Hamish cant either, I think they spoil the whole look of a formal outfit.

So true, but why stop at formal outfits, Daz? They spoil the whole look of ANY outfit to my mind.

[Hamish]

hahaha 2 pages no Hamish lol well looks like you dot alot of opinions!

and i second the kilt book for dummies by hamish

Huh? Wassallthisaboutthen?

[Nick]

Hamish, "French Cuff", for the purposes of this thread, could probably be said to be any kind of cuff that requires a cufflink, though I think all the various styles have different names.

There are regional differences in the US, but here "Dress shirt" refers to a (usually white) button down collared shirt, I think that'd be the same as your business shirt. If I follow you about the pleats down the front, that's what's worn with a tuxedo.

[Cawdorian]

I asked this question because I felt the appearance of the french cuffs with the cuff links just gave the appearance of too much cuff. In other words the cuff was too large for the sleeve of the Argyle jacket and distracted from the appearance of the outfit.:sad:

The next time I will try a shirt with the button cuffs, that should solve the problem. I agree that a small amount of cuff should show below the sleeve.

Hamish, I appreciate your answer. You certainly help us on the correct fashion path.

[Shotdir]

Hamish,
First let me say "very nice photo gallery"

Let me preface this with "USUALLY"

French Cuffs are usually a shirt cuff that folds back on itself and is then "buttoned" with cuff links. Barrel cuffs overlap and button with a button.
french cuffs are usually larger in the sleeve since they have the tails of the cuffs pulled together.
No more than 3/4 of an inch of your cuff and preferably 1/2 should be all that shows when you shoot them.

Button down collars are not formal, many men wear them with business attire (blame Brooks Brothers!) but they are not formal wear.

Plain and/or pleated front shirts are usually what is worn with tails.

Mourning clothes are a formal cutaway jacket and striped trousers for early formal wear usually worn with a wing collar and an ascot or four in hand

Both black tie and white tie use a wing collar and a bow tie in that colour.
Black tie (and tails) is usually reserved for after 6 pm formal wear (think blue dress A).
White tie is the height of fashion for formality (Blue dress A).

Hamish, have you seen a bow tie matching the tartan worn with a PC? How does that look, too busy or hideous?

a Tux jacket was not really formal, although now it is accepted as such. White jacket tuxedos aka "dinner jackets" are also seen as "stylish" for many over here.

I actually don't think that French Cuffs would look all that good with a PC


Ed