What makes someone Scottish?

[porrick]

I'm a British citizen born in England of two English parents. My passport says 'European Community' at the top. Below that it says 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. I'm not sure in what way it differs from any other European passport. I've seen others, but I haven't noticed any difference - they all say EC or EU at the top and the nationality below. Mine was issued in 1996 by the British Embassy in Washington DC. Nowhere does it specifically state that it's a British rather than a European passport, so we may be discussing semantics, but when I've gone through customs there's often a lane for European passports where there used to be one for British passports, so customs clearly regards it as European.

Well, the EU reference is there to indicate the membership. Citizens of the member countries are still nationals of independent, sovereign countries (though there are many agreements that regulate affairs).

Quite right, upon entering Britain the lane for British Citizens has been changed to "EU and EEA" (European Economic Area, permitting Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein to participate in the Internal Market, while not assuming the full responsibilities of EU membership) This has to do with the Schengen Agreement of free passage within the EU/EEA. The people in that lane are all nationals/citizens of their country, holding national passports.

Ooopps, my appologies - we are derailing now

Boy, am I looking forward to getting my kilt so that I can write about that :mrgreen:

[bikercelt1]

I had a class a few years ago that touched on the concept of "families of origin". According to this theory a person will respond according to the traditions of their heritage even if they haven't been raised in the traditions. I thought it was hogwash until several class experiments proved to me that people with celtic heritage will indeed respond different than people of different cultures. My family traditions and perspectives resonate with celtic culture even though we are many generations removed and don't actively cultivate those cutural traditions ( at least not until I started researching and revivng those which I happen to like).

I am fully American by any standard. I have genes from French Huegonots, Swedish immigrants, Irish and Scottish refugees, even one stray Austrian ancestor snuck in somewhere. The part of my family that immigrated to the U.S.A. most recently was still more than 100 years ago. They all focused on being "American" and tried to meld rather than maintaining a separate culture, but those cultural prferences can't be denied even though they may be suppressed.

Am I "Scottish"? No, I'm an American. Do I like things Scottish, Irish, Swedish? Sure. The things I've learned tell me that it's all but pre-ordained that I'll respond to certain things in predictable ways.

Having said all that, what is it you are really asking? Do you have to be Scottish to wear a Kilt? Obviously not. Will you offend somebody who thinks you do or somebody who thinks you're wearing it wrong? Probably. That's their problem and you don't have to own it. Will you have to defend wearing the kilt if you are not Scottish? You shouldn't have to, but you might and that's why we're here, to support each other in our desire to wear the kilt and present it as an acceptable and reasonable mode of dress.

Oop's. Got on the soap box again didn't I. I'm off now. Somebody else's turn.

Jamie

[Moosehead]

I had a class a few years ago that touched on the concept of "families of origin". According to this theory a person will respond according to the traditions of their heritage even if they haven't been raised in the traditions.

Good point. When I first arrived in the UK for my stint with the Mob, I was amazed at how many people said I had a very English sense of humour. I had been told that many times before here in Canada, but had always put it down to something else. When in Scotland, or when zipping across to Ireland, I was told the same thing. Strange though, as the English in me is much less than the Scots and Irish.

Maybe I just watched too much Corrie as a kid. :grin:

[Mike1]

Nowhere does it specifically state that it's a British rather than a European passport, so we may be discussing semantics, but when I've gone through customs there's often a lane for European passports where there used to be one for British passports, so customs clearly regards it as European.

Semantics? I don't think that is the case, either.

Take a look to see what the United Kingdom Passport Service has to say about UK passports.

==BEGIN QUOTED MATERIAL==

Machine-readable passports

On 15 August 1988, the Glasgow passport office was the first to start producing new burgundy-coloured machine-readable UK passports.

The International Civil Aviation Organisation had first promoted this new international standard for passports, which involved attaching a machine-readable strip inside the back cover.

The strip can be read by a machine at passport control. The information on the strip can then be checked immediately against details held on immigration computers. This increases both international security and the speed with which people can pass through border controls.

All newly issued UK passports are now machine-readable.

The European passport issue

The new burgundy passports had another key difference: they were the first UK passports to mention the European Community (EC) on the cover.

This was the result of a decision made by the Council of Ministers of the EC to introduce a common format for passports for member states. As well as mentioning the EC on the cover, the new format included translations of certain parts of the text inside the passport into official languages of the EC.

In 1997, the words 'European Community’ were replaced with ‘European Union’ (EU).

Despite these changes, the new passport was still a UK passport, not a European one. [Emphasis mine M.] It retained the Royal Coat of Arms and the traditional wording about allowing the holder ‘free passage and protection’.

Non-European lookalike passports

Not everyone who has a UK passport can claim a connection to the European Union. People belonging to the following groups are issued with a ‘lookalike’ burgundy machine-readable passport that has no references to the EC/EU:

• British dependent territories citizens (now British overseas territories citizens)
• British overseas citizens
• British nationals (overseas)
• British subjects without the right of abode
• British protected persons.

==END QUOTED MATERIAL==

This material clearly refutes your earlier statement -

In point of fact, there is no UK passport anymore.

Furthermore, it would seem that when you renew your passport, it will not have reference to the EU, as you are a British national overseas.

[Manu]

I on the other hand am in love with my heritage and proud that my ancestors came here from Scotland. I'm equally as proud of my maternal ancestors who came here from Spain only three generations ago. But the culture does not resonate with my heart the way the culture of Scotland does. I do not feel the thrill in my heart when I hear a classical guitar the way I do when the drones of a bagpipe waft in to the room.

Hey Glassman,
have you ever the pipes from Asturias or Galicia? They date back as old as the Irish or Scottish. Maybe you should learn some more about your Spanish heritage, there is a lot of beautiful and interesting history begind the old nation.
Back on topic, I was born and raised in Spain, I am a Spaniard, and 40 years from now I still will be a Spaniard no matter where I live. My kids, IF they are born here and raised here they will be americans of Spaniard descent. Thats the way I see it.

[KiltedKnight]

I can't speak for others but this is the way that I see it, on my dear mothers side I am a MacClure of northern Ireland, Sept of the Clan Macleod of Harris of the Isle of Skye so I wear the Macleod Tartan. On my fathers side I am Norwiegian by the name of Lund, those same Lunds that mixed it up with Olaf the Black and before him the Picts. So there's a mix up with ancient Scotland there as well. Now, in 1973 I was Knighted "Cavalier Von Der Strasse" or "Knight of the Road" by the Chancellor of Germany Willie Brandt for doing what comes naturally. Along with the Knighthood came honorary German citizenship though I don't have a drop of German blood in me. My point? It don't mean nuttin'. I would never consider any man in a Kilt anything but another man in a kilt and he would be welcome to a dram of my best scotch with me anytime, black, asian, white, latin, it's not an issue with me. If he's man enough to don the Kilt he's man enough for me.

[pdcorlis]

I would never consider any man in a Kilt anything but another man in a kilt and he would be welcome to a dram of my best scotch with me anytime, black, asian, white, latin, it's not an issue with me. If he's man enough to don the Kilt he's man enough for me.

I like your style!

[cormacmacguardhe]

Having said all that, what is it you are really asking? Do you have to be Scottish to wear a Kilt? Obviously not. Will you offend somebody who thinks you do or somebody who thinks you're wearing it wrong? Probably. That's their problem and you don't have to own it. Will you have to defend wearing the kilt if you are not Scottish? You shouldn't have to, but you might and that's why we're here, to support each other in our desire to wear the kilt and present it as an acceptable and reasonable mode of dress.

This is how I feel about the idea of being "Scottish". My family on my father's side came to America back in 1634, from England. What happened to the "blood" since then is anybody's guess. My mother's parents came to Canada in the late 1890's, her mother from Northern Ireland, her father from England. My Grandmother was born however in the Renfrew area of Scotland. Am I Scottish? Not by most people's definitions, but I do not claim to be. I am an America who has some Scottish ancestry. I happen to be quite proud of that ancestry, not to denigrate the English side, but just feel pulled to honor that particular bloodline. It is this that brought me to kilt wearing, not sure that it alone keeps me here.

As qouted above by bikercelt1 wear what you wish, those who matter will not care. those who care do not matter. (Quoted some where else by others, but quite applicable.)

[Valencian Kilted]

Hey Glassman,
have you ever the pipes from Asturias or Galicia? They date back as old as the Irish or Scottish. Maybe you should learn some more about your Spanish heritage, there is a lot of beautiful and interesting history begind the old nation.
Back on topic, I was born and raised in Spain, I am a Spaniard, and 40 years from now I still will be a Spaniard no matter where I live. My kids, IF they are born here and raised here they will be americans of Spaniard descent. Thats the way I see it.

I completely support Iñaki's point of view. I am not American, nor scottish, I am a valencian spanish that simply feels PASSION for Scotland, and that's what I'll always be. That passion for Scotland is just on third place after my passion for Valencia and my passion for whole Spain.

Here, in my country, we are divided in 17 territories, or "authonomic communities" with different folclores and traditions. We got 5 languages and many different roots. As Iñaki said, lots of people has to discover a little bit more of Spain, just scratching under the flamenco topics and culture, just related with southern Spain. If you go to the north-west corner, u'll discover an ancient celt area, mainly in Galicia and Asturias, and, of course, pipes and pipe bands. The Galician bagpipe is, as I've read on a scottish piping book, the most closely related with the middle age's models, and at least it's as ancient and traditional as those on Ireland or Scotland.

Just as an example, I'll invite you to look for some Carlos Nuñez, Milladoiro, Hevia, Luar na Lubre, etc,... cd's, and try to see if you can feel as I do how your arms hairs start thrilling! I strongly recommand the live version of the "Entrelazado de Allariz" by Carlos Núñez and the Scottish National Young Pipe Band included in his last work "En Casa... con amigos" (At home... with friends) listen it at full volume!!!

¡Salud!

T O N O

[GlassMan]

Hey Glassman,
have you ever the pipes from Asturias or Galicia? They date back as old as the Irish or Scottish. Maybe you should learn some more about your Spanish heritage, there is a lot of beautiful and interesting history begind the old nation.
Back on topic, I was born and raised in Spain, I am a Spaniard, and 40 years from now I still will be a Spaniard no matter where I live. My kids, IF they are born here and raised here they will be americans of Spaniard descent. Thats the way I see it.

All four of my great-grandparents on my mother's side were from in and around Madrid. What I've gathered from that side of the family doesn't really grab me. Perhaps I might feel more strongly about it if I looked into it further, but their haughty attitude towards anything not Castillian put me off.