A question on ethics...

[Cinnabar]

What an interesting thread. Just to drop in my dos pesos, as long as you know something about the tartan you're wearing I don't see a real problem with wearing whatever Tartan you like. If, however, you can only state that it's a pretty black one, then I don't think your doing anyone any real service. As per state or other locality-based tartans I'm sure you can wear whatever the heck you like. People wear shirts with location names written on them all the time, often places they've never even been to, and it never seems to be a big deal.

Enjoy.

[ronstew]

Very quickly, I believe the tartan Ronstew saw on the STA site was "Stewart CAMELL" and not "Stewart CAMPBELL." That "p" makes a big difference. In this case, the "Camell" referrs to the color -- a light brown.

It does seem probable that somebody mis-entered the tartan name. I certainly have seen reference to Stewart Camel. Still, here is a screenshot from the STA site:




Back to the ethics/taste question: Upon further reflection of the Campbell policies, I think that the only tartans that have any exclusivity are those that are categorically recognised by the clan chief (or equivalent for corporate tartans, state tartans, etc.) So, my friend Cinnabar wants a Grey Stewart tartan (I think Alan H does too). Well, I can't find any head of the Stewart clan, I can't find any declaration about Stewart tartans, and Grey Stewart seems to be a fashion tartan and not an official tartan anyway. So I would say Grey Stewart is only a descriptive label meaning "a mostly grey tartan in a similar pattern to the Royal Stewart," and anybody can do whatever they like with it. Same with Blue, Camel, Green, Navy (which I happen to have on order), Dress Blue Stewart and so on. Even in the absense of official word, though, I might hope for restraint around the Dress, Hunting, Royal and Old Stewart tartans, all of which are at least 150 years old.

Also, I would tread more carefully about the regional Stewart tartans (Stuart of Bute, Stewart of Appin, etc.)

But the bottom line of this post is that I think that very few of these named tartans are really claimed as "property" by the clans whose names they bear. And as such, there is no ethical or even taste issue in wearing unclaimed tartans, even if they are named after clans.

[Sir Robert]

At one time, in a land very far away, a Clan Cheifton could send a burning torch through his clan's lands to call all of the men of his clan down from the hills to make war on who ever he pleased. As part of that power he could designate how they would dress. Now we know this.

One assumes that he could say everybody wear the same color or tartan for combat identification reasons but we are guessing.

Today a Clan Chiefton can deceide himself what the Clan Tartan will be. His word is final on that issue. Now can he enforce his will? No.

Now on my Father's side I am a Craig. The last Clan Craig Cheifton died in 1647. Note the date. We have not one bit of a clue if there was or was not ever a Craig Tartan. Now you can buy a "Craig Tartan" but it ain't official. Some Craigs rolled into the Gordons and we can "officially" wear the Gordon Tartan by the grace of the Head of Clan Gordon. So what is "Correct?"

Who cares? Me I am now head of Clan Donnell (Population 2, my daughter and I.) and I say that all members of Clan Donnell are to wear: "Stillwater Nightstalker or on occations of ceremony the all black MacAubra tartan." That is as official as any other tartan.

[Wompet]

Me I am now head of Clan Donnell (Population 2, my daughter and I.) and I say that all members of Clan Donnell are to wear: "Stillwater Nightstalker or on occations of ceremony the all black MacAubra tartan." That is as official as any other tartan.

As another descendant of the Donnells, I know my one brother would be honored to wear the Nightstalker and MacAubra tartans of clan Donnell ... if he wore a kilt. Maybe for his semi-impending nuptials ... weddings are ceremonial occasions by definition, and we were raised to dress properly for such things.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

On the "Stewart Campbell" tartan, I can say two things.

1) It is indeed listed as a "fashion tartan" in the ITI. The source for the tartan is the West Coast Woolen Mills, which produce a lot of purely fashion tartans, so this is not surprising.

2) The STA notes for this tartan read, "Probably meant to be 'Camel Stewart'." In other words, it was probably a mistake when the swatch was labelled.

M

[macwilkin]

At one time, in a land very far away, a Clan Cheifton could send a burning torch through his clan's lands to call all of the men of his clan down from the hills to make war on who ever he pleased. As part of that power he could designate how they would dress. Now we know this.

One assumes that he could say everybody wear the same color or tartan for combat identification reasons but we are guessing.

Today a Clan Chiefton can deceide himself what the Clan Tartan will be. His word is final on that issue. Now can he enforce his will? No.

Now on my Father's side I am a Craig. The last Clan Craig Cheifton died in 1647. Note the date. We have not one bit of a clue if there was or was not ever a Craig Tartan. Now you can buy a "Craig Tartan" but it ain't official. Some Craigs rolled into the Gordons and we can "officially" wear the Gordon Tartan by the grace of the Head of Clan Gordon. So what is "Correct?"

Who cares? Me I am now head of Clan Donnell (Population 2, my daughter and I.) and I say that all members of Clan Donnell are to wear: "Stillwater Nightstalker or on occations of ceremony the all black MacAubra tartan." That is as official as any other tartan.

Re-read the letter from the Duke of Argyll, he states that any member of the clan who currently wears the "un-official" Campbell of Argyll tartan, they should continue wearing it. He is not saying, because I do not recognise this tartan, you should not wear it -- no. He is simply saying that for various reasons, it is not an "official" tartan. Simply presenting facts about the tartan, and letting the members decide. He's just warning the members about what the tartan vendors are saying about the various Campbell tartans -- let the buyer beware.

As far as which tartan is correct for the Craigs -- both of them. The Craig tartan for the association of the surname, and the Gordon because of the long association with the House of Gordon. I can wear the Cumming tartan, the Gordon tartan (Our Chief's line married into the Gordons) and the Grant (the Cummings were associated with the Grants in Morayshire. I choose to wear the Cumming Hunting (ancient colours) because my Chief wears it. I think it is a neat way to show my interest in my ancestry and it gives me a good story to tell at Burns Nights, etc. What's wrong with that? The tartan has significance for me for those reasons, and that's what's important.

Once again, it all comes down to mutual respect. Some may not see this as important, others do. As long as people respect each other's choices, that's what I'm saying.

Todd

[GlassMan]

I want to add something about the Saltire kilts. The first time I saw it I thought it was neat. I was amazed at how they managed to get the flag to show like that since it was accomplished by pleating. But then it dawned on me that I would be placing such an honored symbol on my behind. Worse yet, I'd be sitting on it. It seemed horribly dishonorable to me. So personally I won't wear one. I've also seen Saltire kilts where the Saltire is on the apron. Once again, it just doesn't seem right.

But then, I also treat the American flag with extreme reverence. I know it's just a symbol, but symbols have great meaning. I remember when I was in the fire department, most crews would leave the flag flying all day and all night. But when I was on duty that flag would come down at night, be folded properly and reverently and then would go back up in the morning.

[BLAZN]

If you take out the tradition to the kilt... it simply becomes an unbifurcated garment...but for me that has the same power of attraction than a flowered sarong... none if I am out of the beach on a tropical area, and even that I'd prefer to wear shorts full of pockets before than a flowered sarong! ... but of course, this is just my taste, guys, and as a matter of taste, whatever u choose will be respected from this side of the ocean ;)

The sarong is actually as respected in Polynesian culture as the kilt is in Scottish culture, as a manly garment. Where I see the intent of your argument, I would attempt to recommend that you not knock something you might not know much about.

Check out the Scottish Tartans Authority:

http://www.tartansauthority.com

Check all the tartans; you may find some others you like.

Been there. Have to go again... trying to find out if my Carroll roots are Irish or not. And I'm liking some of the Hamilton Hunting tartans. I may have added a tartan or two to my wish list.

if you arr wan o the small percentage o 'mericans wi' a passport- please visit Scotland sometime (an Spain, Italy, France, and so on....) there is a very large world out there with very impressive histories and cultures....

Even sans passport, this American has had the opportunity to travel quite a bit of Europe. I've been to Naples, Rome, Rota (Spain), Gibraltar, Portsmouth, London, Glascow, Helensburgh, Edinburgh, Brest (France), Toulon (France), Paris, Tromso (Norway), Bergen (Norway), Souda Bay (Crete), Pompeii, La Maddalenna (Italy), and Palau (Italy). Frankly, my fondest memories are of Scotland. My worst... Paris.

Thats what geneological research is all about. :rolleyes: If she is a Carroll, its pretty much 100% that she is Irish.

Starting my research as soon as I call my mother back.

Many clan societies have volunteer genealogists that will assist members with their research. Some societies are fairly strict in regards to pedigree charts and membership requirements, but most are not.

In regards to the Hamilton's, here is the Clan Hamilton Society's web site:

http://clanhamilton.acomhosting.com/

Cheers,

Todd

I should hope the wife appreciates this as much as I do.

I hope that my various posts since being a member of this board have shown that it is not my intention to trample upon American aspirations and culture: asking that just as I respect their ways, Americans will respect ours.

I love my country, and I am very proud to be an American. I take my duties as a member of the U.S. armed forces seriously, but I would never be so bold as to insult another man's country (especially one I enjoyed so much, such as Scotland). Of course, in return, I would expect another to show my country due respect... something I found did not occur much when I visted northern France.

Well, I haven't read past this post yet, so this may have been said already, but in my mind, it is the placementof the symbol that bothers me. The fact that it is below the waist seems, for some reason, to be disrespectful; I would feel the same way about putting it on the apron. In my mind, there is a difference between "display" on the top half of the body, and "decoration" on the bottom half.

I see your point, and find it is as fine a point as any. I can certainly lean toward agreement... some US military uniforms have US flags sewn onto the shirts. This is fine, but I would never want to see the Stars and Stripes on someone's ****.

Seems like we have this discussion about every other month or so - as always - its both educational and revealing. I appreciate the high degree of civility here - I'm not sure there are a lot of places on the world weird web where this conversation could happen with such respect.

Agreed. Not only have I learned so much more about kilt wearing in general, I've been provoked to delve deeper into my geneology. As it turns out... my Carroll lineage does indeed "entitle" me to be a member of Clan Cian, and thus allows me to wear that tartan! Thanks to everyone here for provoking me to get off my tookus and do some research!


I definately have enjoyed this thread, and I really wish my laptop wasn't acting screwy, because it took QUITE a while to go through all these posts! lol

[M. A. C. Newsome]

If I may also add a further comment about the Campbell tartan... it seems that a lot of what I read about this issue blames the popularity of the spurrious Campbell of Argyle tartan on "tartan merchants."

Speaking as someone who often wears the hat of a tartan merchant, let me tell you that the consumer more often than not (in my experience) holds the blame.

Very often I'll be consulting with someone over which tartan to wear (be it a kilt, sash, or just a tie) and I will make it as clear as I can to them that the Duke of Argyle, the cheif of the Clan Campbell, desires his clansmen to wear the plain Campbell tartan (aka Black Watch) and does not in fact recognize the so-called Campbell of Argyll tartan.

And more often than not, the customer insists (sometimes rather strongly) that they are a Campbell of Argyle and that this is their tartan, regardless of anything else I tell them. That's the tartan that their daddy wore, and their granddaddy wore, and that's what they will continue to wear, by golly. I don't know if they simply choose to disregard the Duke's wishes on this, or if they think I am attempting to pull a fast one on them, or what. But many people continue to demand this tartan, even after being told about its status.

And in the end, it's not my job to be the tartan police. It's my job to supply the customer with the tartan he or she wants.

Now, one of my other hats that I enjoy wearing, as curator of the museum, is that of educator. And in that regard, I do feel a responsibility to inform people about the status and history of the different Campbell tartans. But if I explain it to me and they don't listen, or simply don't care, I'm not going to force someone into wearing a tartan they don't want. In the end, it is their choice, after all!

All of this is to say, don't blame it all on the tartan merchants. More often than not, they are simply giving the tartan wearers what they demand.

I have commented in the past on how the culture and tradition of tartans is shaped by this dynamic between the tartan suppliers and the tartan wearers. People are going to wear what is available, and the merchants will make available what people want to wear. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

M

[RockyR]

I've been to Naples, Rome, Rota (Spain), Gibraltar, Portsmouth, London, Glascow, Helensburgh, Edinburgh, Brest (France), Toulon (France), Paris, Tromso (Norway), Bergen (Norway), Souda Bay (Crete), Pompeii, La Maddalenna (Italy), and Palau (Italy). Frankly, my fondest memories are of Scotland. My worst... Paris.

Sounds like the Johnny Cash song... "I've been everywhere, Man. Cross the deserts bare, Man..."