Clan and District tartan history

[GlassMan]

Apples and Oranges now, though...you're confusing a "district tartan" with a "clan tartan".

Considering in that in some areas at the time the population could be 3/4 or more of a given clan, there would have been a reasonable correlation between the two. The modern tendency for families to disperse was almost nonexistent outside of royal houses.

You quoted Martin Martin's comment, which says: "at the first view of a man's plaid, to guess the place of his residence" --notice that Martin says his residence, not his clan.

As the post I made prior to your clearly stated, I wanted to make sure that we were talking about apples and apples and not apples and oranges. And it does indeed seem that we are talking about apples and oranges. Since blood and residence was very closely allied in times prior to the 18th century, residence and clan would still have been close.

The problem with this statement is that you have provided no hard and fast facts that there was a regulated, uniform system of clan tartans before the early 19th century. I agree, much more research needs to be done, and we probably haven't discovered all their is to find about the concept of tartans, but until we have verifiable and documented evidence, it's best to not make statement of fact without them. I agree that the regional or district tartan concept is older than the clan tartan, but even that wasn't uniformly regulated.

I never claimed a hard and fast regulated system prior to Culloden. Only those who seek to dismiss the idea that there was any idea of tartan identification prior to the 19th century insiste on an exact analog to the modern tartan system.

I'm a historian and librarian by profession, as well as a Missourian, so you'll have to "show me" before I believe it! :mrgreen:

I agree with you on that. Which is why I've asked for further research before making definitive pronouncements. You may not have read my prior posts but with my undergraduate degree from Yale University, my graduate work at Harvard and a research fellowship at Princeton (all in Medieval European history) I am well acquainted with the concept of historical proof and my credentials are sterling. However, I must point out that records that are commonly available for one time period (19th century) are completely non-existent for others (early Medieval period). Hence the incredibly difficult time we have giving a precise date for the first known use of the kilt. While we know by what date it absolutely must have been worn by, that does not definitively state that it could not have been worn before then. Only that we do not yet have any proof of its prior existence. There is a difference between the two. Those of us who concentrated on Medieval History constantly come up against the problem of a paucity of sources. We must draw many inferences from only a few sources and also see what information can be gleaned from other fields of inquiry (such as art history, archeology, geology, etc.) to help explain occurances and practices. I will admit that the enforced creativity of Medievalists does lead us to question negative statements (such as a blanket insistence that there was no system of tartans prior to the 19th century) instinctively. Yet none of that is meant to question your own credentials. I respect you as both a historian and a librarian.

Again, I'd love to see your source for the story of the "tartan lawsuit", as well as the documentation for the Clan Mackay information -- did the historian provide a bibliography and the works he cited?

As soon as I am finished with my move to my new Handicapped Accessible home on the 19th I'll be happy to have my library unpacked and I'll search out the references for you. But sadly, they've already been packed as we are trying to pack the house ourselves to save money instead of having the movers do it for us. Unless you are willing to give me that time, I cannot give you the exact references. However, once I am unpacked I will happily give you the citations.

I for one am willing to let this drop until I've had a chance to move an unpack. That way we can diffuse a discussion before it mounts into an argument and someone says something we regret later. Cajunscot, I like you personally and have always respected your posts. So I hope you'll indulge me with the time to unpack.

--Phil