Dress Sporran

**Bob C** · 15th May 06, 07:50 AM

That's fine, Todd. You offered an opinion and I offered a different one.

I still say that the sporran should stay with a family that treasures it, rather than in a storeroom at a museum.

Besides, from the letter, it sounds like the museum is less interested in the sporran than in mrpharr's money.

**Kilted KT** · 15th May 06, 07:59 AM

It's your wedding...Wear the sporran. It is such a great tribute to your family heritage..

**Moosehead** · 15th May 06, 08:14 AM

Just to add to the pot, links regarding Captain Twentyman.
http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/...inter1914b.htm

Captain Arthur Twentyman was the Regiments first casualty during WW1. On being brought to the field hospital, having been shot in the chest by a sniper he was trying to dislodge, he was treated by a doctor who was to receive the Victoria Cross...twice.

**macwilkin** · 15th May 06, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Just to add to the pot, links regarding Captain Twentyman.
http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/...inter1914b.htm

Captain Arthur Twentyman was the Regiments first casualty during WW1. On being brought to the field hospital, having been shot in the chest by a sniper he was trying to dislodge, he was treated by a doctor who was to receive the Victoria Cross...twice.

Great minds think alike!

The sporran of the Regiment's first casualty in WWI, and treated by a VC and Bar -- I seriously doubt it would be left in a storeroom.

Granted, Capt. Twentyman was probably not wearing it in combat, but there's a lot of history there, and important to telling the story of the sacrifice of the Liverpool Scottish in the First World War.

Again, it's not the sporran alone, but the story behind it.

Regards,

Todd

**Bob C** · 15th May 06, 08:37 AM

It seems that Captain Twentyman's story is well-documented, despite the fact that his sporran is now in Texas.

What could mrpharr's giving up his treasured heirloom possibly add to that?

(BTW - I'm just arguing for the fun of arguing, now. I like you guys, and I hope you're not getting angry.

)

**macwilkin** · 15th May 06, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bob C.

It seems that Captain Twentyman's story is well-documented, despite the fact that his sporran is now in Texas.

What could mrpharr's giving up his treasured heirloom possibly add to that?

Bob,

See my earlier posts, but one more time: items with a documented history are important to museums in telling their story. It provides a tanigible link to the past, instead of just being a name, date or fact in the history book. It makes history "real", as well as preserving the memory of Captain Twentyman, who died in the First World War. What if Captain Twentyman has descendents that are still living today? An artifact like this can help ensure that his sacrfice, as well as the sacrifices of the Liverpool Scottish regiment, will live on, even though the veterans of World War One are no longer with us. Not to mention the fact that regiments like the Liverpool Scottish were decimated in the First World War, so any relic of a member of that regiment killed in action takes on very powerful symbolism in the regiment, and in the communities throughout the UK. Remember that many towns and villages saw high casuality rates among territorial and "pals battalion" units.

I have a photo of my great-great grandfather's regiment's flag in my office. The State Historical Society of Iowa restored the Civil War Colours that were originally displayed in the Iowa state capitol and now sells prints of the colours to folks like myself as a way to keep the conservation process (very expensive, btw) going. I have no photograph of Lt. William I. Williamson, but I do have a photo of the flag he marched under from Shiloh to Vicksburg and the March through Georgia. That's pretty powerful, and I get goose bumps everytime I look at that photo. And it just doesn't belong to me, it belongs to all of us who are desecendents of Iowa Union Veterans.

I apologise to everyone for "hijacking" the thread into the importance of preserving the memory of fallen soldiers through "bits of kit", but I worked with this everyday. Such items help tell the story of men and women who should never be forgotten about, like Captains Twentyman and Chavasse.

Again, this gentleman can do whatever he wants with sporran. All I am saying is that there appears to be a very moving story behind this bit of leather and horsehair, and that he might consider giving to a museum whose very mission is to tell that story. That's what a treasured heirloom does after all.

Todd

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 15th May 06, 10:25 AM

Todd asked me for my opinion on this one and I find myself agreeing with his reasoning. Especially since we know a bit of the story behind the sporran and it would appear to be a story with some historic interest/signifigance.

If the Liverpool Scottish have a museum, they'd probably love to have the sporran. Even if not, there is bound to be some museum who would value it.

Not that you can't wear it to a wedding -- it's your sporran. But just bear in mind that any time you wear or use it like that you run the risk of damaging an item that would be of historic value to people.

M

**macwilkin** · 15th May 06, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Bob C.

That's fine, Todd. You offered an opinion and I offered a different one.

I still say that the sporran should stay with a family that treasures it, rather than in a storeroom at a museum.

Besides, from the letter, it sounds like the museum is less interested in the sporran than in mrpharr's money.

Again, you're missing my point.

Originally Posted by Maj. IL Riley TD Retd.

The identity of its original owner is likely to be Captain Arthur Twentyman and Dennis is likely to be able to tell you a substantial amount about this significant figure. He rates a serious mention in the regimental history by Colonel McGilchrist...snip

If everything checks out, and the sporran is ID'ed to Captain Twentyman, then I doubt the sporran will be kept in a "storeroom at a museum". Just doing a google search on Twentyman turned up this bit of information:

Noel's first patient was Captain Arthur Twentyman who was hit in the chest by a bullet only twenty four hours after arriving, he died of his wound.

-- http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html

The "Noel" in question was Capt. Noel Chavasse, Medical Officer for the Liverpool Scots, who also was awarded a Victoria Cross and Bar for his action in the First World War, the only man to be awarded the VC twice in the First World War. That's pretty impressive, to say the least. The VC is equivalent to our Congressional Medal of Honor, btw. (Emphasis mine)

As far as the money goes, I can understand why the museum would like to sell him a copy of the regimental history:

Originally Posted by Maj. Riley

As you will have gathered from our website, we are a museum run entirely on a volunteer basis without public funding and we undertake to do our best to help you at all times.

As someone who has worked in the museum business, this is usually the norm and not the exception. Donations, gift shop sales, etc. are the lifeblood of many a museum, and without them, their doors would close and history would be lost. Even in the NPS, we depend on donations, sales by our bookstores, etc. to keep the doors open because of the "incredible shrinking budget". So, don't be too hard on the museum folks for asking for a donation for research services -- and I can attest to this as one who has spent a lot of hours researching genealogical queries for folks, it does take a lot of time, as well as copier toner and ink, paper, etc. to answer a "simple" question.

Just ask our own Matt Newsome about museum funding.

Todd