Dress Sporran

[Angus]

If it was me I'd wear it. I wouldnt care about the other stuff, like if it was proper or not. Its your grandfather's, assuming he's passed on, its an excellent way to have a little bit of him with you on your wedding day.

The cleaning idea, is a good one though, and Matts recomendation of Danny Shearer would be the best way to go.

In the end though its ultimately your decision, whichever way you go, good luck with it and Congratulations on your upcoming marriage, All the best

[mrpharr]

Here is the email i received back on the sporran.

From: Major IL Riley TD FSA Scot (retd) Hon. Secretary
Liverpool Scottish Regimental Museum

Dear Mr Craig,

Thank you for your most interesting enquiry regarding your grandfather's sporran. I am passing this to our Honorary Curator, Mr Dennis Reeves, for his attention. I know that he will be most interested. As we are all volunteers working on an unpaid basis, it may be a few weeks before you receive a full reply. May I ask for no more of your excellent photographs without prior warning; the size of your e-mail was 11Mb and this gave my dial-up connection (soon to be replaced) 50 minutes of serious indigestion last night!

However, I will tell you that this is known as a 'silver-topped sporran' as worn by officers and senior NCOs (sergeant and above) of the Liverpool Scottish. It is of a pattern still worn today. The position of the badge is slightly complicated and some detail can be found on our website but essentially represents the Liverpool Scottish as the 10th (Scottish) Battalion of the King's (Liverpool Regiment) Territorial Force. At the start of the First World War, the King's (Liverpool Regiment) consisted of two regular battalions, two special reserve battalions to support the regular force and six territorial or reserve battalions.

The identity of its original owner is likely to be Captain Arthur Twentyman and Dennis is likely to be able to tell you a substantial amount about this significant figure. He rates a serious mention in the regimental history by Colonel McGilchrist (see below) and if you consider purchasing this, please let me know; we would have to consider some efficient way of getting payment into the UK as our banks charge almost as much to cash dollar cheques as their value! We would be most interested to know something of the sporran's journey to Austin, Texas.
As you will have gathered from our website, we are a museum run entirely on a volunteer basis without public funding and we undertake to do our best to help you at all times. The Museum Trustees are considering introducing a modest nominal charge but this policy is not yet in place. However, if you feel that the information that you have gained is of use (or you simply wish to support our project) I wonder if you would consider a donation to the Museum Trust to help towards our everyday running costs and the conservation of the collection.

Yours sincerely,

Ian Riley
Liverpool Scottish Regimental Museum Trust (Reg Charity 277953)
A Fully Registered Museum (Council for Museums, Archives and Libraries Reg No 431)
Maintained Entirely by Voluntary and Regimental Donations
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/
Museum Mail to: ilriley@liverpoolscottish.org.uk
Personal mail to i.l.riley@theoffice.net
Buy the WW1 Liverpool Scottish Illustrated 400 page History 'Bravest of Hearts'
(£29.95 inc postage - hardback) or a softback reprint of the original (1930) regimental history "The Liverpool Scottish 1900-1919" by Colonel AM McGilchrist (£15 plus £3 postage and packing in the UK) from the Museum
Ordinary mail/donations should be sent to Major I.L. Riley TD FSA Scot,
The Shambles, 51a Common Lane, Culcheth,
WARRINGTON WA3 4EY
We do not receive mail at the Museum premises

[Rex_Tremende]

It's nice for a change to see the groom take as much interest in his wedding dress (as in attire) as the bride.

How cool is it to discover all the history attached to your possessions?

I say wear the heirloom ("something old") for the ceremony, then switch to a new one for the reception.

Regards,
Rex in Cincinnati

[Moosehead]

Just to play devil's advocate here, but it seems mighty improbable that, given your Father's family's arrival in the US, that your Grandfather served with the Liverpool Scottish. Might I suggest, that more than likely, he aquired it from the original owner Captain Twentyman, whom the gent from the Museum seems quite familiar with.

Such being the case, I won't go into the protocol of wearing such an item.

Again, just adding a different point of view.

[macwilkin]

Just to play devil's advocate here, but it seems mighty improbable that, given your Father's family's arrival in the US, that your Grandfather served with the Liverpool Scottish. Might I suggest, that more than likely, he aquired it from the original owner Captain Twentyman, whom the gent from the Museum seems quite familiar with.

Such being the case, I won't go into the protocol of wearing such an item.

Again, just adding a different point of view.

To echo Moosehead's comments, was your grandfather actually in the Liverpool Scottish, or was this something he purchased? If the latter, then I would say again that I would be hesitant to wear it at the wedding, and further (and this is just my opinion, take it for what its worth) -- I would consider donating the sporran to the regimental museum. Since it is apparent that Captain Twentyman was a key figure in the history of the regiment, an item such as this would most likely receive a prominent place in the museum collection. Items like this are very important to providing a "material account" of a regiment's history, and it would be nice to see it "go home" to the regiment if it doesn't have a strong connection to your family, such as a relative that served.

Again, this is just my opinion, as a historian and a park ranger at a Civil War battlefield, where we had many similar items pass through on a daily basis.

Regards,

Todd

[Bob C]

I think you had reached the right decision already, mrpharr. Buy a new sporran for the wedding. Archive the antique as the treasured family heirloom that it is.

I can't agree with Todd that you should donate it to the museum. They, no doubt, have many of them. This one was your grandfather's, regardless of how he acquired it.

[macwilkin]

I think you had reached the right decision already, mrpharr. Buy a new sporran for the wedding. Archive the antique as the treasured family heirloom that it is.

I can't agree with Todd that you should donate it to the museum. They, no doubt, have many of them. This one was your grandfather's, regardless of how he acquired it.

Bob,

I am looking at this from a different POV, though -- yes, the sporran has sentimental value, and rightly so -- but it also fairly old, and will continue to deteriorate if not properly cared for by someone trained in conservation techniques -- air temperature, humidity, lighting -- all can destroy old leather and other materials. I've seen this happen far too often before, and as a result, a histortically valuable artifact was lost forever.

And the issue, btw, is not the fact that the museum owns X number of sporrans -- if the sporran is ID'ed to a well-known member of the regiment, that is what makes it valuable. Pea Ridge National Military Park in Arkansas recently was able to purchase two frock coats owned by Maj. General Samuel Curtis -- now, the NPS has "plenty" of Union Army frock coats -- but these coats were owned (and one was most likely worn) by General Curtis at the Battle of Pea Ridge in 1862. One coat was an officer's coat modified into a general officer's uniform, which makes it even more valuable. So, whilst you may only see one sporran out of many, an item identified to a personage can be worth more because of the association.

I own my great-great grandfather's comission as a First Lieutenant in the 11th Iowa Infantry during the Civil War, signed by Iowa Governor Samuel Kirkwood and marked with the Great Seal of the State of Iowa. I am working to have it professionally treated and maintained so that one day I can donate to the Iowa State Historical Society. I have some items from my grandfather's service in WWII that I'm trying to find a good home as well someday. Items like these are valuable tools in interpreting history, especially when they give us a glimpse as to what a soldier wore, carried, etc.

And finally, that was just my opinion, as someone who dealt with artifacts like this on an almost daily basis, as I would assist our librarian and curator when somone would bring in their relatives musket, etc. He can take it or leave it, but I just wanted to play "devil's advocate" from a historian's POV.

Todd

[Bob C]

That's fine, Todd. You offered an opinion and I offered a different one.

I still say that the sporran should stay with a family that treasures it, rather than in a storeroom at a museum.

Besides, from the letter, it sounds like the museum is less interested in the sporran than in mrpharr's money.

[Kilted KT]

It's your wedding...Wear the sporran. It is such a great tribute to your family heritage..

[macwilkin]

That's fine, Todd. You offered an opinion and I offered a different one.

I still say that the sporran should stay with a family that treasures it, rather than in a storeroom at a museum.

Besides, from the letter, it sounds like the museum is less interested in the sporran than in mrpharr's money.

Again, you're missing my point.

The identity of its original owner is likely to be Captain Arthur Twentyman and Dennis is likely to be able to tell you a substantial amount about this significant figure. He rates a serious mention in the regimental history by Colonel McGilchrist...snip

If everything checks out, and the sporran is ID'ed to Captain Twentyman, then I doubt the sporran will be kept in a "storeroom at a museum". Just doing a google search on Twentyman turned up this bit of information:

Noel's first patient was Captain Arthur Twentyman who was hit in the chest by a bullet only twenty four hours after arriving, he died of his wound.

-- http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html

The "Noel" in question was Capt. Noel Chavasse, Medical Officer for the Liverpool Scots, who also was awarded a Victoria Cross and Bar for his action in the First World War, the only man to be awarded the VC twice in the First World War. That's pretty impressive, to say the least. The VC is equivalent to our Congressional Medal of Honor, btw. (Emphasis mine)

As far as the money goes, I can understand why the museum would like to sell him a copy of the regimental history:

As you will have gathered from our website, we are a museum run entirely on a volunteer basis without public funding and we undertake to do our best to help you at all times.

As someone who has worked in the museum business, this is usually the norm and not the exception. Donations, gift shop sales, etc. are the lifeblood of many a museum, and without them, their doors would close and history would be lost. Even in the NPS, we depend on donations, sales by our bookstores, etc. to keep the doors open because of the "incredible shrinking budget". So, don't be too hard on the museum folks for asking for a donation for research services -- and I can attest to this as one who has spent a lot of hours researching genealogical queries for folks, it does take a lot of time, as well as copier toner and ink, paper, etc. to answer a "simple" question.

Just ask our own Matt Newsome about museum funding.

Todd