Dress Sporran

[Moosehead]

Just to add to the pot, links regarding Captain Twentyman.
http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/...inter1914b.htm

Captain Arthur Twentyman was the Regiments first casualty during WW1. On being brought to the field hospital, having been shot in the chest by a sniper he was trying to dislodge, he was treated by a doctor who was to receive the Victoria Cross...twice.

[macwilkin]

Just to add to the pot, links regarding Captain Twentyman.
http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html
http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/...inter1914b.htm

Captain Arthur Twentyman was the Regiments first casualty during WW1. On being brought to the field hospital, having been shot in the chest by a sniper he was trying to dislodge, he was treated by a doctor who was to receive the Victoria Cross...twice.

Great minds think alike!

The sporran of the Regiment's first casualty in WWI, and treated by a VC and Bar -- I seriously doubt it would be left in a storeroom.

Granted, Capt. Twentyman was probably not wearing it in combat, but there's a lot of history there, and important to telling the story of the sacrifice of the Liverpool Scottish in the First World War.

Again, it's not the sporran alone, but the story behind it.

Regards,

Todd

[Bob C]

It seems that Captain Twentyman's story is well-documented, despite the fact that his sporran is now in Texas.

What could mrpharr's giving up his treasured heirloom possibly add to that?



(BTW - I'm just arguing for the fun of arguing, now. I like you guys, and I hope you're not getting angry. )

[macwilkin]

It seems that Captain Twentyman's story is well-documented, despite the fact that his sporran is now in Texas.

What could mrpharr's giving up his treasured heirloom possibly add to that?

Bob,

See my earlier posts, but one more time: items with a documented history are important to museums in telling their story. It provides a tanigible link to the past, instead of just being a name, date or fact in the history book. It makes history "real", as well as preserving the memory of Captain Twentyman, who died in the First World War. What if Captain Twentyman has descendents that are still living today? An artifact like this can help ensure that his sacrfice, as well as the sacrifices of the Liverpool Scottish regiment, will live on, even though the veterans of World War One are no longer with us. Not to mention the fact that regiments like the Liverpool Scottish were decimated in the First World War, so any relic of a member of that regiment killed in action takes on very powerful symbolism in the regiment, and in the communities throughout the UK. Remember that many towns and villages saw high casuality rates among territorial and "pals battalion" units.

I have a photo of my great-great grandfather's regiment's flag in my office. The State Historical Society of Iowa restored the Civil War Colours that were originally displayed in the Iowa state capitol and now sells prints of the colours to folks like myself as a way to keep the conservation process (very expensive, btw) going. I have no photograph of Lt. William I. Williamson, but I do have a photo of the flag he marched under from Shiloh to Vicksburg and the March through Georgia. That's pretty powerful, and I get goose bumps everytime I look at that photo. And it just doesn't belong to me, it belongs to all of us who are desecendents of Iowa Union Veterans.

I apologise to everyone for "hijacking" the thread into the importance of preserving the memory of fallen soldiers through "bits of kit", but I worked with this everyday. Such items help tell the story of men and women who should never be forgotten about, like Captains Twentyman and Chavasse.

Again, this gentleman can do whatever he wants with sporran. All I am saying is that there appears to be a very moving story behind this bit of leather and horsehair, and that he might consider giving to a museum whose very mission is to tell that story. That's what a treasured heirloom does after all.

Todd

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Todd asked me for my opinion on this one and I find myself agreeing with his reasoning. Especially since we know a bit of the story behind the sporran and it would appear to be a story with some historic interest/signifigance.

If the Liverpool Scottish have a museum, they'd probably love to have the sporran. Even if not, there is bound to be some museum who would value it.

Not that you can't wear it to a wedding -- it's your sporran. But just bear in mind that any time you wear or use it like that you run the risk of damaging an item that would be of historic value to people.

M

[bubba]

For those interested, http://www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/

[mrpharr]

Great debate all. I will have to decide with my family what to exactly do with the piece. It was purchased, like so many other heirlooms, post WWII in London by my grandfather. I'm sure the family did this out of neccessity because of lack of food, money, etc. I just might do all of the above: wear it at the wedding, change to a modern dress sporran at reception, and possibly donate the sporran to the group it originally belongs. But along this note, shouldn't i try to find the family and give it back to them? I'm also sure a collector would pay top dollar. These are all ideas that will be sorted out.
I would have to admit that the emails between Cajunscott and Bob made me gade to have brought the sporran to everyone's attention. It shows that we all have a passion for history, its preservation and the Kilted way. Keep up the posts, they are beyond interesting. I will keep you posted on what other information we discover on this facinating piece of history.
Thanks for your continued interest and remember to keep it civil. Lol.

[Moosehead]

As an addition, if a piece of a uniform belonging to the first US soldier killed in WW1, connected to a double Medal of Honor winner was in somebody elses family, would/should/could the person in possession of said item wear it? The same situation exists here.

The question shouldn't be what can be done with said sporran, but what should be done, in light of the history connected to it.

Posted at the same time as the above.

[mrpharr]

From: Major IL Riley TD FSA Scot (retd) Hon. Secretary
Liverpool Scottish Regimental Museum

Dear Mr Craig,

Sorry for any confusion; perhaps I shouldn't send out e-mails like this one and my original at 2 o'clock in the morning! The phrase ' ..... purchasing this ....' referred to the book by Colonel McGilchrist mentioned earlier in the sentence

He rates a serious mention in the regimental history by Colonel McGilchrist (see below) and if you consider purchasing this, please let me know; we would have to consider some efficient way of getting payment into the UK as our banks charge almost as much to cash dollar cheques as their value!

I certainly wasn't trying to hustle you into selling what you rightly describe as an heirloom, and one with some history.My apologies. Captain Twentyman was, very sadly, killed at an early stage of the war in 1914 near Kemmel in Belgium (a few miles south west of Ypres, the scene of some of the bloodiest fighting of WW1). Dennis will provide you with documentation of his service, the circumstances of his death and something of his part in the Liverpool Scottish and the life of the city of Liverpool

I thought you should be aware that he rates a serious mention in the regimental history (actually well written and with a better sense of humour than one might expect from an account of a regiment's part in WW1). I was drawing your attention to the existence of the history (recently reprinted and mentioned in the signature block below my name). It might be a little presumptuous of me, I'm afraid, but I thought that you might be interested in a copy and I was just taking the opportunity to point out its existence. We have had people in the US and Canada fire off a cheque straight away and it causes huge difficulties when our bank charges us almost the value of the cheque to cash it!

This is a super artifact and looks absolutely genuine.I should mention that when I said it was referred to as a 'silver-topped' sporran they are silver plated and not solid silver (at least we have never seen a solid silver one - which would carry silver hallmarks).

Yours sincerely,

Ian Riley

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

mrpharr, been reading this post with great interest. My 2 cents are worth exactly what you pay for them, but here they are. If your grandfather was a member of the Liverpool Scottish and this were his sporran, I would whole heartedly endorse wearing it as a sign of your family, tradition, and heritage. I can think of no finer tribute. If however, your family came to own the sporran through some means other than inheritance or other transition of family ownership, then it does not represent your family and heritage and I would get a sporran that does, either new or from another family member. In that case you would need to decide what to do with this sporran. It might then be nothing other than a valuable historic artifact that you could sell or donate. The choice would be yours.

Not trying to stir the pot here, just providing my perspective. Congratulations on the impending nuptials!