Where do Kiltmaker's Learn Their Craft?

[Riverkilt]

I'm realizing I asked a two pronged question. My original intent was to find out how people learned to sew traditional kilts. That's sort of evolved into how individual kiltmakers learned their craft.

Some display their training and credentials - like Kathy Lare on her website http://www.kathyskilts.com/ if you click on the "About Kathy" link.

Howie Nicholsby says in the introduction to his 21st Century Kilts catalog that, "I first created 21st Century Kilts in 1996 at age 18 whilst doing a crash course in the wokshop of my parent's busines Geoffrey (tailor) Highland Crafts Ltd." So his training seems to be growing up in the trade.

In an article (2003) about the growing contemorary kilt market Robert McBain of the Keith Kilt School was quoted, "
Robert McBain, who trains a dozen students each year in traditional kiltmaking at the Keith Kilt School on the Moray Firth, believes the industry as a whole needs to define the kilt, come up with a set of standards and endorse it as a group.

"Every industry has its own set of standards and its own specification about what an item actually is and what it should be," said McBain. "We need the same sort of standard for when a customer buys an item, they know they are buying a genuine article."

The Kiltmakers' Association of Scotland began stamping kilts with a "quality assurance" label in 1999, when it was feared that some of Scotland's kiltmakers were beginning to produce kilts of substandard quality.

As a regulatory body, the association also seeks to establish the "highest standards" in Scottish kiltmaking. The art of kiltmaking, however, is largely subjective" http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...6/ai_n12586578

Which is what I was trying to figure out. If I as a buyer of an expensive, traditional, hand sewn kilt want to know the craftsman's experience, training, and credentials - how do I find them out? Many Scottish companies subcontract to unknown craftsmen. Many of the individual craftsmen seem to have just evolved somehow.

Who is my craftsman? Where were they trained? Is traditional hand sewn kiltmaking something that can be learned from a book? Does one need to apprentice? Does one need to attend school? Are there other kiltmaking schools than the Keith Kilt School?

Robert McBain learned kiltmaking in the Army. Now he runs a famous school that graduates are rightly proud of attending. Yet others llike Robert MacDonald earn the craft in the Army too, but go into business.

So the question seems to be well wrapped around both aspects of where does a person go to learn the craft and where did the person we want to order from learn the craft.

There's a difference between the enthused on this board who venture into kiltmaking for others for a fee and kiltmakers like Kathy Lare who invest in an education and credentials and guild membership or Jimmy Carbomb who I believe apprenticed with a kiltmaker.

Not questioning anyone's ability. Not saying anyones gooder than anyone else. Just wondering how we find out about individual kiltmakers or where an interested party would learn the craft.

Ron

[Blu (Ontario)]

I had a discussion with a kiltmaker recently and asked a similar question. What I was told suprised me. She says she has it on good authority that at least one of the major kiltmakers works on a production line system. Few of the workers have the skill to make a kilt from start to finish but are trained to perform a specific task. Many different workers may be involved in a single kilt.

She also says shes disassembled traditional kilts from major manufacturers and found missing steps... such as steeking.

It sounds plausible to me. But perhaps someone with first hand experience can shed some better light on the subject.

.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Ron,

All I can tell you is what I know from my own experience. I learned from Bob Martin, and he taught me specifically how to make the old four-yard box pleated kilt style, because that was specifically what I was interested in, and it's hard to find that style being offered. That's why I primarily make that style of kilt.

I asked Bob who taught him to make kilts (he has about 30 years of experience), and he pointed to his own chest. He told me that he learned by literally tearing apart other kilts to see how they were made.

I gather that most kiltmakers learn the trade from other kiltmakers. The idea of a "kilt school" and "certifications" is relatively new. As far as I know the one in Keith has been the only one. So most kilt makers -- even the best ones -- will not have been certified in this matter. They just learned from other kiltmakers.

As far as knowing what you get when you order from one company or another, I say the best way to judge to to learn the reputation of the company. Very large woolen mills will almost always have their own kiltmakers that they use -- smaller woolen mills will not, necessarily.

Lochcarron, for instance, is one of the largest suppliers of tartan cloth, and they have offices in Scotland, England, Canada, and the US. I know that they have kiltmakers in Scotland and Canada, but none in the US (I don't know about England). So if you order a kilt from a retailer that uses Lochcarron, your kilt will be made by someone in the employ of Lochcarron in either Scotland or Canada. But because Lochcarron has a good reputation and wants to protect its name, you can be reasonably assured that your kilt will be of the highest quality. I'm not sure of the process they use to grade their kiltmakers, but I am certain that there is some quality standard that they enforce to make sure that a Lochcarron kilt lives up to the name on the label.

I would say the same about other major suppliers, such as House of Edgar, Hector Russel, Geoffrey Tailor, etc. All of these outfits are so large that they simply cannot do it with just one or two skilled kiltmakers. They are going to have a very large number of workers on the job. Your kilt may be made by someone with 20 plus years experience or someone making their third or fourth kilt. But the point is these companies will (or should) have some standards of quality in place to judge by, and you can be assured that your kilt will be made to those standards (if not, send it back!).

So if you are unsure about a company, ask around. See if you can find anyone else who has a kilt made by them, and get a good recommendation before you order.

Aye,
Matt

[Barb T]

Hi guys

Sorry to be late weighing in on this thread. I'm travelling (again..).

Many of you know that I learned kiltmaking from Elsie Scott Stuehmeyer, who apprenticed at Thomas Gordon's in Glasgow starting as a young girl of 15. Back then, kiltmakers apprenticed for _5 years_ at a reputable kiltmaker. Yikes! Elsie has literally made thousands of kilts since 1947 when she began her apprenticeship. In the last couple of decades, she has taught many people to make kilts at various "kilt camps", where interested people bring a length of tartan and make a kilt over the course of 5 days under Elsie's direction. I did that when my daughter first started Highland dance, and that's how the book evolved.

The Keith School invented certification for kiltmakers, partly, I suppose, as a business strategy. There is, in fact, no licensing requirement, as there is for practicing geologists in Canada and many of the US states. You don't need a license or certification to work as a kiltmaker.

There's also a Scottish Kiltmakers Guild that for a number of years was restricted to those who have graduated from the Keith School. The Guild now accepts members who aren't Keith School graduates, but I don't think they actively seek them out. I've corresponded with several of the guild members, and they lament the difficulty of not having a personal clientele that would allow them to make a living at kiltmaking and instead having to hire out to the big Scottish supply houses and Scottish stores, who pay them only half or less of what they would make in labor if they were to contract custom kilts directly with clients (not enough to make a living on as a kiltmaker).

I have heard (although have never confirmed this) that some Scottish supply places hire recent Asian immigrants (e.g., the Hmong, who are well know for exquisite hand work) to make kilts. The stitching quality is fantastic, but the construction is only as good as the person giving the instructions. The band kilts that we order (I don't make our band kilts - too many kilts in the same tartan - boring) are beautifully sewn, but the person (people) who make them don't understand kilts. They taper all of our kilts from the hip right to the top of the kilt, and they put darts in the front of the kilt for shaping. Because the kilts taper above the center buckle line, the smallest dimension is at the top band, not at the center buckle line, and they're impossible to buckle tightly at the waist without having them sag. Whoever is making them knows sewing but not kilts. (BTW - I did make my own band kilt and my daughter's and our drum major's so that they would be right...)

My main motivation in writing my book was to preserve the craft of proper kiltmaking. I was seeing too many kilts not made properly, and someone who wanted to make a proper trad kilt had little recourse except to learn from someone like Elsie, spend an enormous amount of time and money to go to the Keith School, or find a properly made kilt and take it apart (not cheap in itself, and you have to assume that the kilt you're taking apart is properly made). So, that's why I wrote the book.

My advice is, order from a kiltmaker whom you know and who does a good job. It's no more expensive than ordering from a kilt house because, while the kiltmaker charges you more for labor than he/she charges the kilt house, there's no middleman, so it all works out about the same.

The only thing I would add is that experience doesn't always mean much. I've known people for whom the adage "1 year of experience, 25 years in a row" could be applied to their kiltmaking. They just aren't meticulous. Every kilt looks like the first or second one they made. And I also know people whose first kilt looked good enough for prime time. I suppose that's true of most jobs. Moral: know your kiltmaker, and don't make assumptions.

And back to Riverkilt's first post in this thread. Self-taught shouldn't be held against someone. It's the quality of the product that matters. If someone is making a product that looks like a kilt should, has all the interior construction that a kilt should have (e.g., the steeking mentioned above, which isn't obvious from the outside of a kilt), and is beautifully made, who cares how he/she learned the craft??

Cheers!

Barb

[Wompet]

Saturday at Hamilton, Canuck and I had a lively conversation with gentleman about kilts and kiltmaking, and you could almost see the steam come out of this guy's ears when Canuck said he was self-taught, and hadn't apprenticed under anyone. Bad enough to be using solid-color, non-woolen fabrics, and to be putting on pockets, but to be self-taught - that was just wrong (this fellow's thinking, not mine).

[RockyR]

Self-taught shouldn't be held against someone. It's the quality of the product that matters. If someone is making a product that looks like a kilt should, has all the interior construction that a kilt should have (e.g., the steeking mentioned above, which isn't obvious from the outside of a kilt), and is beautifully made, who cares how he/she learned the craft??

Well said. If you're mechanically inclined and have a knowledge of the fabric and an advanced knowledge of sewing techniques (and are VERY patient), you can make a very nice kilt without being a certified kiltmaker. If the finished product is virtually indistinguishable between 2 kiltmakers (one certified, 1 not), does it really matter?

Some people that claim to be "certified" or taught from the "old masters" may not be. What's to stop someone from SAYING that they're certified when they're not? I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, just bringing up a point. I can tell everyone I went to college. I can show you a degree... but until you call up my Al Mamatar and check with the Registrar's office to see that I graduated in 1999, you don't know for sure.

*soap box mode off*

I started sewing after we founded the company. I started with casuals (that was all we offered). I designed them the most logical way I could with my limited knowledge (at that time) of "handsewn kilts". Next we made "Traditionals" (now called Semi Trads) and my level of skill increased. I figured out more and more little "tips" and perfected that model. When I got good enough and saw enough wool kilts, I tried my hand at a Premier. The more kilts I made the better I got.

Going to a "kiltmaking school" will teach you how to make kilts the way your instructor made them. Doing it yourself and figuring out every little detail yourself gives you a certain uniqueness. While you ARE re-inventing the wheel, you have a chance to pick up on something that was missed by others or to re-invent a certain aspect of the kiltmaking process to save time or money.

If you order a kilt from a store, chances are, they'll just order the kilt from the mill. The mill pieces the kilts out to local ladies (and men) who make them for the mill. Are they certified? Possibly. You'll have to keep making calls and going up the chain to get to the individual who made it and ask them questions about their background.

If you order a kilt from a smaller company, you get the story, but still can't be 100% sure it's accurate. Your best bet would be things like the BBB or the valued opinion of customers "in the know" like we are here at XMARKS.

[GlassMan]

Owning a USA Kilt premier and a Scottish Handsewn 8 yarder from Hector Russel, I can say that there is very little difference in the quality of the finished product between the two. There are minor points here and there, but I'm just as satisfied with each and the price I paid for them.

In a way, much the same question can be applied to my vocation, stained glass. (I consider stained glass a calling and not simply a job.)

There are all sorts of ways that people who make stained glass for profit have come to the profession.

Some are self-taught, although since it is much harder to reverse engineer stained glass without completely destroying the handwork before you can even see what was done they tend to not be as good.

Others have taken a class or two at their community center and then practised a lot on their own prior to getting started professionally.

Most have apprenticed under another artist. But this has different meanings. In the US and much of Europe this means being hired by one of the large studios and slowly over time learning each step of the process, since most studios make panels on something like an assembly line (there are glass cutters, leaders, solderers, mudders, etc) and only near the end of their career are they fully skilled in all facets of stained glass making. I apprenticed under an independent artist who taught me the steps in a more holistic manner since there wasn't a huge staff and the ability to specialize a worker on a single aspect of a project for years. Some of these apprenticeships are now part of a Apprenticeship program sponsored by the Stained Glass Guild of America, but not all of them. Being part of that program simply means that the apprenticeship is certified as following their guidelines. Some of the best large studios don't bother to pay the SGAA the large annual payment for the certification of their apprenticeship programs.

Finally, there is one rather famous stained glass artist (who shall remain nameless) who has created her own certification process. She gives classes to would-be instructors and then declares them certified (she's the one issuing the certification and not any governing body or standards body of any kind) and those "certified" instructors with a couple of weekend seminars under their belts are out there teaching students and issuing them "certifications" as glass artists after a few weeks of classes.

The SGAA apprenticeship certification already seemed questionable to me, but that last "certification" process is truly sketchy.

Thankfully, for stained glass there has been an attempt to cut through the confusion. The SGAA has a tiered membership that is not just based on cost. For the higher membership levels your work must actually be reviewed by a panel of your peers and art experts before you can be invited to membership at that level.

[way2fractious]

I've asked the same questions as Riverkilt of two kiltmaking members of this forum, and had conversation with a local professional kiltmaker. And in August I'll have another opportunity to explore these subjects with Barb's co-author, Elsie. Here is my synthesis from all these sources:

Kiltmaking evolved from "do-it-yourself in your cottage" into a craft guild which required a period of apprenticeship to learn the various steps and techniques. As with everything, quality counted in order to retain membership in the guild and, more importantly, a satisfied customer base. The large mills of today require their "stable" of kiltmakers to meet certain quality standards, and are essentially "auditioned" before being employed by submitting samples of their work. If a kiltmaker's work becomes sub-standard, the mills will not send them work.

Without a formal, regulated apprenticing system, how does one learn the trade? (1) Barb told you her path. (2) Another told me he informally "apprenticed" for about a year under retired kiltmakers from a large Scottish firm, but who were re-employed in the USA in other related work. (3) Another told me about flights to Scotland for extended periods of training that consisted of deconstructing other's kilts, sewing one's own kilts and submitting them for examination and critique. He commented that the results of a submission were merely a "pass", or a "fail" without any clue of deficiencies noted. (4) Kathy Lare proudly cites (and rightly so) her credentials regarding training.

Two camps of kiltmakers emerge: those who are self-employed, and those who are employed or contracted by other businesses. The second group must abide by certain standards, or lose their livelihood. These standards include not divulging certain trademarked sources, techniques, specialties, or other "company secrets."

If a kiltmaker retires, and after their non-disclosure clauses lapse, they and the other self-employed may teach as many others as they wish how to make kilts. Those who still need to make a living with kiltmaking may be less inclined to share such knowledge widely, but the part-timer, the hobbyist, the "enthused" (as Riverkilt puts it) can and do share their expertise (thanks again go to Barb amd Elsie.)

My conclusion is that the limiting factor to learning kiltmaking is NOT on the supply side (training opportunities), but on the demand side (how strongly does one want to learn it.) How much time, money, and focus does one wish to invest? That's the question of life: it applies to martial arts, stained glass, musical instruments, building hotrods, seriously collecting anything, learning history, flying airplanes, tying flies, or (_enter your passion here_)... the list is endless.

[J Byous]

[QUOTE=Riverkilt;250992]"I'm realizing I asked a two pronged question. My original intent was to find out how people learned to sew traditional kilts. That's sort of evolved into how individual kiltmakers learned their craft."

Hey to all from Savannah, GA. I'm a longtime kiltmaker, first time poster.

I've been making kilts in various forms for ten years or more. I started because I wanted a kilt and didn't want to pay retail. I had learned to sew as a young lad -- my mother thought I wouldn't find a wife -- so now I sew and she doesn't.

I tackled my first traditional kilt several years ago after purchasing the now famous book by Barbara Tewksbury and Elsie Stuehmeyer. After about 40 hours of head scratching and stitch pulling I was able to make a pretty darn good kilt.

Since then I've made hundreds of kilts that have been worn by diaspora Scots, Irish Emerald Society members and even a chap in the Washington DC Ballet. If I recall correctly there are a couple of Germans and a Dane in the group as well.

It has been fun and a bit of hard work.

My suggestion for those who want to learn:

If you know how to sew, buy the book. It's a great course in itself. Learn to do it Elsie's way, then modify to your own method.

If you've never sewn, find someone to apprentice under or take the Keith course. It will be worth the time.

When you do start making kilts, be particular. Non-kilt wearers will not see much of a difference between great and just okay. Those who wear kilts regularly will spot a crappy kilt in an instant.

The most important thing about making kilts -- have fun doing it.

J Byous
Savannah

[Barb T]

If you've never sewn, find someone to apprentice under or take the Keith course. It will be worth the time.

Just as another viewpoint on this, I can tell you that many, many people (and quite a few on this forum) have learned how to make kilts just by following the instructions in The Art of Kiltmaking, even though they had never sewn before. So, don't feel, if you haven't sewn before, that you have to find someone to each you personally!