Where do Kiltmaker's Learn Their Craft?

[Blu (Ontario)]

I had a discussion with a kiltmaker recently and asked a similar question. What I was told suprised me. She says she has it on good authority that at least one of the major kiltmakers works on a production line system. Few of the workers have the skill to make a kilt from start to finish but are trained to perform a specific task. Many different workers may be involved in a single kilt.

She also says shes disassembled traditional kilts from major manufacturers and found missing steps... such as steeking.

It sounds plausible to me. But perhaps someone with first hand experience can shed some better light on the subject.

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[M. A. C. Newsome]

Ron,

All I can tell you is what I know from my own experience. I learned from Bob Martin, and he taught me specifically how to make the old four-yard box pleated kilt style, because that was specifically what I was interested in, and it's hard to find that style being offered. That's why I primarily make that style of kilt.

I asked Bob who taught him to make kilts (he has about 30 years of experience), and he pointed to his own chest. He told me that he learned by literally tearing apart other kilts to see how they were made.

I gather that most kiltmakers learn the trade from other kiltmakers. The idea of a "kilt school" and "certifications" is relatively new. As far as I know the one in Keith has been the only one. So most kilt makers -- even the best ones -- will not have been certified in this matter. They just learned from other kiltmakers.

As far as knowing what you get when you order from one company or another, I say the best way to judge to to learn the reputation of the company. Very large woolen mills will almost always have their own kiltmakers that they use -- smaller woolen mills will not, necessarily.

Lochcarron, for instance, is one of the largest suppliers of tartan cloth, and they have offices in Scotland, England, Canada, and the US. I know that they have kiltmakers in Scotland and Canada, but none in the US (I don't know about England). So if you order a kilt from a retailer that uses Lochcarron, your kilt will be made by someone in the employ of Lochcarron in either Scotland or Canada. But because Lochcarron has a good reputation and wants to protect its name, you can be reasonably assured that your kilt will be of the highest quality. I'm not sure of the process they use to grade their kiltmakers, but I am certain that there is some quality standard that they enforce to make sure that a Lochcarron kilt lives up to the name on the label.

I would say the same about other major suppliers, such as House of Edgar, Hector Russel, Geoffrey Tailor, etc. All of these outfits are so large that they simply cannot do it with just one or two skilled kiltmakers. They are going to have a very large number of workers on the job. Your kilt may be made by someone with 20 plus years experience or someone making their third or fourth kilt. But the point is these companies will (or should) have some standards of quality in place to judge by, and you can be assured that your kilt will be made to those standards (if not, send it back!).

So if you are unsure about a company, ask around. See if you can find anyone else who has a kilt made by them, and get a good recommendation before you order.

Aye,
Matt

[Barb T]

Hi guys

Sorry to be late weighing in on this thread. I'm travelling (again..).

Many of you know that I learned kiltmaking from Elsie Scott Stuehmeyer, who apprenticed at Thomas Gordon's in Glasgow starting as a young girl of 15. Back then, kiltmakers apprenticed for _5 years_ at a reputable kiltmaker. Yikes! Elsie has literally made thousands of kilts since 1947 when she began her apprenticeship. In the last couple of decades, she has taught many people to make kilts at various "kilt camps", where interested people bring a length of tartan and make a kilt over the course of 5 days under Elsie's direction. I did that when my daughter first started Highland dance, and that's how the book evolved.

The Keith School invented certification for kiltmakers, partly, I suppose, as a business strategy. There is, in fact, no licensing requirement, as there is for practicing geologists in Canada and many of the US states. You don't need a license or certification to work as a kiltmaker.

There's also a Scottish Kiltmakers Guild that for a number of years was restricted to those who have graduated from the Keith School. The Guild now accepts members who aren't Keith School graduates, but I don't think they actively seek them out. I've corresponded with several of the guild members, and they lament the difficulty of not having a personal clientele that would allow them to make a living at kiltmaking and instead having to hire out to the big Scottish supply houses and Scottish stores, who pay them only half or less of what they would make in labor if they were to contract custom kilts directly with clients (not enough to make a living on as a kiltmaker).

I have heard (although have never confirmed this) that some Scottish supply places hire recent Asian immigrants (e.g., the Hmong, who are well know for exquisite hand work) to make kilts. The stitching quality is fantastic, but the construction is only as good as the person giving the instructions. The band kilts that we order (I don't make our band kilts - too many kilts in the same tartan - boring) are beautifully sewn, but the person (people) who make them don't understand kilts. They taper all of our kilts from the hip right to the top of the kilt, and they put darts in the front of the kilt for shaping. Because the kilts taper above the center buckle line, the smallest dimension is at the top band, not at the center buckle line, and they're impossible to buckle tightly at the waist without having them sag. Whoever is making them knows sewing but not kilts. (BTW - I did make my own band kilt and my daughter's and our drum major's so that they would be right...)

My main motivation in writing my book was to preserve the craft of proper kiltmaking. I was seeing too many kilts not made properly, and someone who wanted to make a proper trad kilt had little recourse except to learn from someone like Elsie, spend an enormous amount of time and money to go to the Keith School, or find a properly made kilt and take it apart (not cheap in itself, and you have to assume that the kilt you're taking apart is properly made). So, that's why I wrote the book.

My advice is, order from a kiltmaker whom you know and who does a good job. It's no more expensive than ordering from a kilt house because, while the kiltmaker charges you more for labor than he/she charges the kilt house, there's no middleman, so it all works out about the same.

The only thing I would add is that experience doesn't always mean much. I've known people for whom the adage "1 year of experience, 25 years in a row" could be applied to their kiltmaking. They just aren't meticulous. Every kilt looks like the first or second one they made. And I also know people whose first kilt looked good enough for prime time. I suppose that's true of most jobs. Moral: know your kiltmaker, and don't make assumptions.

And back to Riverkilt's first post in this thread. Self-taught shouldn't be held against someone. It's the quality of the product that matters. If someone is making a product that looks like a kilt should, has all the interior construction that a kilt should have (e.g., the steeking mentioned above, which isn't obvious from the outside of a kilt), and is beautifully made, who cares how he/she learned the craft??

Cheers!

Barb

[Wompet]

Saturday at Hamilton, Canuck and I had a lively conversation with gentleman about kilts and kiltmaking, and you could almost see the steam come out of this guy's ears when Canuck said he was self-taught, and hadn't apprenticed under anyone. Bad enough to be using solid-color, non-woolen fabrics, and to be putting on pockets, but to be self-taught - that was just wrong (this fellow's thinking, not mine).

[RockyR]

Self-taught shouldn't be held against someone. It's the quality of the product that matters. If someone is making a product that looks like a kilt should, has all the interior construction that a kilt should have (e.g., the steeking mentioned above, which isn't obvious from the outside of a kilt), and is beautifully made, who cares how he/she learned the craft??

Well said. If you're mechanically inclined and have a knowledge of the fabric and an advanced knowledge of sewing techniques (and are VERY patient), you can make a very nice kilt without being a certified kiltmaker. If the finished product is virtually indistinguishable between 2 kiltmakers (one certified, 1 not), does it really matter?

Some people that claim to be "certified" or taught from the "old masters" may not be. What's to stop someone from SAYING that they're certified when they're not? I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, just bringing up a point. I can tell everyone I went to college. I can show you a degree... but until you call up my Al Mamatar and check with the Registrar's office to see that I graduated in 1999, you don't know for sure.

*soap box mode off*

I started sewing after we founded the company. I started with casuals (that was all we offered). I designed them the most logical way I could with my limited knowledge (at that time) of "handsewn kilts". Next we made "Traditionals" (now called Semi Trads) and my level of skill increased. I figured out more and more little "tips" and perfected that model. When I got good enough and saw enough wool kilts, I tried my hand at a Premier. The more kilts I made the better I got.

Going to a "kiltmaking school" will teach you how to make kilts the way your instructor made them. Doing it yourself and figuring out every little detail yourself gives you a certain uniqueness. While you ARE re-inventing the wheel, you have a chance to pick up on something that was missed by others or to re-invent a certain aspect of the kiltmaking process to save time or money.

If you order a kilt from a store, chances are, they'll just order the kilt from the mill. The mill pieces the kilts out to local ladies (and men) who make them for the mill. Are they certified? Possibly. You'll have to keep making calls and going up the chain to get to the individual who made it and ask them questions about their background.

If you order a kilt from a smaller company, you get the story, but still can't be 100% sure it's accurate. Your best bet would be things like the BBB or the valued opinion of customers "in the know" like we are here at XMARKS.

[GlassMan]

Owning a USA Kilt premier and a Scottish Handsewn 8 yarder from Hector Russel, I can say that there is very little difference in the quality of the finished product between the two. There are minor points here and there, but I'm just as satisfied with each and the price I paid for them.

In a way, much the same question can be applied to my vocation, stained glass. (I consider stained glass a calling and not simply a job.)

There are all sorts of ways that people who make stained glass for profit have come to the profession.

Some are self-taught, although since it is much harder to reverse engineer stained glass without completely destroying the handwork before you can even see what was done they tend to not be as good.

Others have taken a class or two at their community center and then practised a lot on their own prior to getting started professionally.

Most have apprenticed under another artist. But this has different meanings. In the US and much of Europe this means being hired by one of the large studios and slowly over time learning each step of the process, since most studios make panels on something like an assembly line (there are glass cutters, leaders, solderers, mudders, etc) and only near the end of their career are they fully skilled in all facets of stained glass making. I apprenticed under an independent artist who taught me the steps in a more holistic manner since there wasn't a huge staff and the ability to specialize a worker on a single aspect of a project for years. Some of these apprenticeships are now part of a Apprenticeship program sponsored by the Stained Glass Guild of America, but not all of them. Being part of that program simply means that the apprenticeship is certified as following their guidelines. Some of the best large studios don't bother to pay the SGAA the large annual payment for the certification of their apprenticeship programs.

Finally, there is one rather famous stained glass artist (who shall remain nameless) who has created her own certification process. She gives classes to would-be instructors and then declares them certified (she's the one issuing the certification and not any governing body or standards body of any kind) and those "certified" instructors with a couple of weekend seminars under their belts are out there teaching students and issuing them "certifications" as glass artists after a few weeks of classes.

The SGAA apprenticeship certification already seemed questionable to me, but that last "certification" process is truly sketchy.

Thankfully, for stained glass there has been an attempt to cut through the confusion. The SGAA has a tiered membership that is not just based on cost. For the higher membership levels your work must actually be reviewed by a panel of your peers and art experts before you can be invited to membership at that level.

[way2fractious]

I've asked the same questions as Riverkilt of two kiltmaking members of this forum, and had conversation with a local professional kiltmaker. And in August I'll have another opportunity to explore these subjects with Barb's co-author, Elsie. Here is my synthesis from all these sources:

Kiltmaking evolved from "do-it-yourself in your cottage" into a craft guild which required a period of apprenticeship to learn the various steps and techniques. As with everything, quality counted in order to retain membership in the guild and, more importantly, a satisfied customer base. The large mills of today require their "stable" of kiltmakers to meet certain quality standards, and are essentially "auditioned" before being employed by submitting samples of their work. If a kiltmaker's work becomes sub-standard, the mills will not send them work.

Without a formal, regulated apprenticing system, how does one learn the trade? (1) Barb told you her path. (2) Another told me he informally "apprenticed" for about a year under retired kiltmakers from a large Scottish firm, but who were re-employed in the USA in other related work. (3) Another told me about flights to Scotland for extended periods of training that consisted of deconstructing other's kilts, sewing one's own kilts and submitting them for examination and critique. He commented that the results of a submission were merely a "pass", or a "fail" without any clue of deficiencies noted. (4) Kathy Lare proudly cites (and rightly so) her credentials regarding training.

Two camps of kiltmakers emerge: those who are self-employed, and those who are employed or contracted by other businesses. The second group must abide by certain standards, or lose their livelihood. These standards include not divulging certain trademarked sources, techniques, specialties, or other "company secrets."

If a kiltmaker retires, and after their non-disclosure clauses lapse, they and the other self-employed may teach as many others as they wish how to make kilts. Those who still need to make a living with kiltmaking may be less inclined to share such knowledge widely, but the part-timer, the hobbyist, the "enthused" (as Riverkilt puts it) can and do share their expertise (thanks again go to Barb amd Elsie.)

My conclusion is that the limiting factor to learning kiltmaking is NOT on the supply side (training opportunities), but on the demand side (how strongly does one want to learn it.) How much time, money, and focus does one wish to invest? That's the question of life: it applies to martial arts, stained glass, musical instruments, building hotrods, seriously collecting anything, learning history, flying airplanes, tying flies, or (_enter your passion here_)... the list is endless.

[Canuck]

snip

Talking about hand sewn traditional kilts here, not contemporary kilts.

snip
Ron

My name came up in a couple of posts but in reference to Ron's Question. I do not do traditional kilts. I have done them for myself and will continue to do so if time permits. I learned from books, the internet and other kiltmakers. I apply as much as I can in the traditional format in constructing my kilts. I must have about thirty versions that I built before I even built one for someone else.
It is amazing when at the shows that people ask me to build a tartan kilt ...to the point that they insist I make them one...I smile and say thank you but there are people who do it everyday (making traditional kilts) I make contemporary kilts everyday and I will stick to do that. If they want an RKilt I will be more than pleased to do so.

[A Hay]

A length of cloth, some thread, simple tools along with knowledge and passion and the pieces come together into a useful and beautiful garment.

I've enjoyed this thread very much. I have always admired those with manual talents and skill and the perseverance to stick to a task until it is competently completed.

My hat is off to those of you who take up the challenge of kiltmaking. Your passion shines through.

Best wishes,

Tom

[TecScot]

Yes there are other Master Kilt Makers in the US. There is Cathy McWilliams in Puyallup Washington certified by the Association of Master Kilt Makers of Scotland (AMKM). I am currently apprenticed with her. As an apprentice I am already making superior kilts to what you see from many sources. When my apprenticeship is complete I will apply to The AMKM by sending a kilt for an independent appraiser to examine. If it does not meet standard I will not be recognized.

By the way, I am blown away that Barbara Tweksbury's responded to this thread. Her book was the best $30 I spent on this quest to become a kilt maker.

Yes there are bad kilts made in Scotland - I've fixed a few - and worse made elsewhere. Also be wary of kilts where it says "Tartan made by X", the X standing for a Scottish weaver. I've seen lovely tartan ruined by inexpert assembly.

The way to be positive that the kilt you are getting is quality is to look for a Association of Master Kilt Makers logo or the Guild of Master Craftsman logos. If it doesn't have one of those certifications you need to be sure that you are dealing with someone with a good local reputation. It helps if you can see someone wearing one of their kilts. Does it hang well? Does is swing the way it should? Is the wearer comfortable in the kilt? Is it made of quality materials? Good kilt makers exist without certification, but certification provides assurance.

As someone pointed out, anyone can copy a logo for their web site and literature. The AMKM provides its members with a woven label to sew inside their kilts. It is harder to get a bogus label woven than to steal a web image. As the union folk say "look for the label".

By the way, the BBC ran a story this summer about the Keith Kilt School. They are in trouble for funding. I haven't heard anything new since June but they were reported to be at risk of not existing by the end of the year. I sure hope they find a way to prosper, it would be a shame to lose them.

I haven't named my kilt master as I didn't get her permission to publish her name to the world before starting this post.

Annette Mentzer
Seattle Washington