Allowed tartans

[Streetcar]

Obviously many will see my views as being petty, they will offer arguments about the clan/tartan nexus developing in recent times-having said that we are thinking about two hundred years, and a fairly solid link twixt name and tartan being established in that time. So why destroy that?

On the contrary, James. I don't see that view as "petty." I'll admit, I've not really understood it, but that was why I asked. You've done an admirable job of explaining that position. I agree, two hundred years is tradition. And traditions - no matter how they came about - are a hard thing to buck.

Thank you again for the insight!

[arrogcow]

Then what happens when no one can agree on what the clan tartan is?

I have a tank in the Montgomery tartan, and it is listed as the "Clan" tartan on several websites (these colors are much darker than the tartan is in person)


Yet one tartan site says this is the clan tartan


and while on the official Clan Montgomery site they do not actually define their tartan, one can buy a similar tartan (the purple seems wider than in the first pic to me) from the clan (at a fairly reasonable price I might add).

But then I have found the same sett but with more defined colors (Red and green instead of pink and dark green)


So I guess my tank isn't really a Clan tartan. But then I find these other Montgomery's (same colors as mine, diferent sett).



And this doesn't even include Montgomery of_________, which I have found several.

But wait the Scottish Tartan Authority says Montgomery surname is supposed to wear Aberdeen district tartan!?!

That means that there are 3-4 setts (I can’t tell is the last two are the same or not) and at least 2 color variations of the same sett (three if you also count the Montgomery Modern I found which is blue instead of purple).

So am I insulting the clan by wearing a tartan that may not be the clan tartan, but has the clan name? Or maybe I qualify for the clan since their database of geneology contains lots of Wilsons and Robersons (I gotta have a connection somewhere - maybe I should take their DNA test). But wait, they don't seem to have a clan chief anymore, so are they still a clan. And they were a lowland clan in the first place, what are they doing with a tartan?

Then there is the last name thing. My mother is a Thompson, can I wear the Thompson tartan? Even though my Thompson ancestors were Welsh? And then which one (there are 6-8 different Thompson tartans), but Thompsons aren't their own clan, but a sept of MacTavish, so is it still insulting for anyone to wear any of their tartans? Thompson BTW are supposed to wear the Campbell, Galloway District or MacTavish tartans if you believe the Scottish Tartan Authority.

Adam

[macwilkin]

But wait the Scottish Tartan Authority says Montgomery surname is supposed to wear Aberdeen district tartan!?!

That means that there are 3-4 setts (I can’t tell is the last two are the same or not) and at least 2 color variations of the same sett (three if you also count the Montgomery Modern I found which is blue instead of purple).

So am I insulting the clan by wearing a tartan that may not be the clan tartan, but has the clan name? Or maybe I qualify for the clan since their database of geneology contains lots of Wilsons and Robersons (I gotta have a connection somewhere - maybe I should take their DNA test). But wait, they don't seem to have a clan chief anymore, so are they still a clan. And they were a lowland clan in the first place, what are they doing with a tartan?

Then there is the last name thing. My mother is a Thompson, can I wear the Thompson tartan? Even though my Thompson ancestors were Welsh? And then which one (there are 6-8 different Thompson tartans), but Thompsons aren't their own clan, but a sept of MacTavish, so is it still insulting for anyone to wear any of their tartans? Thompson BTW are supposed to wear the Campbell, Galloway District or MacTavish tartans if you believe the Scottish Tartan Authority.

Adam,

Remember, the STA is not telling anyone which tartans to wear, only making suggestions. As Matt and I have explained before, the reason why some district tartans are "associated" with certain last names is because that particular area might be traditionally associated with that surname; for example, the Cummings are generally found in NE Scotland around Buchan, but a Cumming could also choose to wear the Badenoch tartan, since the Comyn land was originally centered there.

The folks at the STA are very nice and I can't ever imagine them telling anyone that they were "supposed" to wear one tartan and one tartan only. Besides that, they are a great resource for all things tartan.

Personally, I like to see more people wearing district tartans. They give folks more options, and the history behind them is very interesting. Choices are not a bad thing.

Regards,

Todd

[bubba]

That's the interesting part of all the Clan associations. If you have a blood connection to one chances are good that you have a connection to just about all of em one way or another, intermarriage, shifting territories, whatever. The surname never made any real difference since one could join any Clan by swearing allegiance to that Clans Chief and being accepted. There really aren't any clear lines.

[Schultz]

I've thought of that, too, Bubba. Clan doesn't always mean "blood tie", particularly in the case of the a "clan" confederation like Clan Chattan. If entire patrynomic and presumably blood-tied groups can seek the protection of the Mackintosh and become a member of Clan Chattan, then an individual can most assurely swear allegiance to any particular clan chief who will accept it and become a member of the Clan.

[MacWage]

I go back to sports associations:

Each team has "their" fans. Some fans are loyal to one team and one only. One guy I work with pulls only for New England Patriots (American Football) and Boston Red Sox (Baseball). Like some are members of one clan only and wear one tartan only. While others pull for several teams. I pull for Atlanta Falcons and then for Carolina Panthers (odd as their the Falcon's big rival), Green Bay Packers, and Washington Redskins. Each for different reasons. Likewise, I consider myself tied to several clans and feel a "right" to wear several tartans. I have different reasons for the tartans. Most are by blood (MacNeil, Wallace, Wilson/Gunn, Gordon/Todd) or residency (Georgia, Carolina, American), while others are out of historical respect (MacGregor-> Rob Roy), friends (Stewart, Campbell, etc), in-laws (Loud MacLeod/Lewis), or memberships (MacBubba/Culloden) to name a few. I have a reason to want to where a particular tartan, just as to pull for a certain sports team. To many, green and yellow stands for either Green Bay Packers or Oakland A's, though it is/was also the colors of Team Lotus and the livery colors of MacNeil of Barra.

One is "free" to wear what he or she wants, but these patterns have associations that virtually call for explanation. To wear these colors is tantamount to wearing a sports team colors in that one is associated with that team. If I wear Green Bay stuff, I respond that I have a lot of respect for a team that is from an area the size of "Greenville/Spartanburg" (approx. 100,000), but owns the franchise and is sold out for my lifetime, besides the great history and image of the team. In a sense, the Packers are Wisconson. Both clan tartans and sports teams have a sense of belonging that draws in "locals" and outsiders who want to share the "association" with the "insiders." The same is true of real football (soccor), baseball, racing (red and black in NASCAR->Dale Jr. and light blue and yellow in F1->Renault), and ANY other team sport.

No one wears tartan for no reason, unless it is a flannel shirt. To most, "I like the colors" is a laughable and idiotic answer. The clan would be offended at that. While a better answer is: "I am facinated by the life and the myths about Rob Roy MacGregor, especially how the myths diverge from reality, so I wear MacgGregor in respect for him, his clansmen, and their descendants." Few, but the most arrogant, MacGregors would look down at the second answer.

It is a mix of association and respect, except by the most idiotic of tartan wearers who have NO SENSE of what they are doing. (This does not apply to any I've met here, as far as I know. Interest in the history and a sense of respect is a large part of the reason most of us are here. Otherwise, none of us would have bothered.)

That is the "middle ground" and what ACTUALLY happens.

[Cawdorian]

I hate to add more confusion to this post, but----

The Campbells claim both the McTavish's and the Thompsons as septs of their clan.

The McTavish's claim both the Campbells and Thompsons as septs of their clan.

Who is right, your guess is as good as mine. :confused: But again, they may both be right.

[Macman]

My dad's last name is McIntosh. When my mom married him, she changed her name from Oliphant to McIntosh. I am a McIntosh with lots of Oliphant (and other clans going back) blood in him. Personally, the only clan tartans I will wear are McIntosh tartans, because that's the only clan of which I feel a member. The only reason I can give for this is that it seems to be "hard-wired" in me, going back through family and how I was brought up.

I would also admit to the same feelings as Matt's MacIntyre customer - because I really like the Oliphant/Melville tartan, but would not feel comfortable wearing it. Maybe I will some day.

Still, I can understand the connections that many on the board have with various tartans and I take no issue with anyone who feels differently about this. I would certainly not try to dictate what tartans anyone else can or should wear. I think it's great that there are so many people out there who want to wear tartan at all. And MacWage, your team analogy makes total sense to me!

[An t-Ileach]

Take the McKelvies (my mother's family). The eponymus is Selbach mac Fherchair Fota, of the Cenel Loarnd and High King of Dalriada and centred on Islay. Globally, there are actually quite few of them, maybe a couple of thousand families, which implies that demographically they probably do actually descend from the one patronymus.

Collins's handbook (the only one to list them at all) lists them as Campbells, on two grounds - that Islay in recent times has been owned by the Campbells of Cawdor (and for that matter in really, really recent times mostly by Bruno Schroder, the banker) and that there are McKelvies to be found in the Glassary. So that means Campbell of Cawdor is a possible tartan.

But, Islay was part of the Lordship of the Isles (in fact it was the centre of it) that was seized by nefarious means by the Stuart king James VI from Angus Macdonald in the 1590s and then given to Campbell of Cawdor in 1614. The Exchequer Rolls for Scotland for 1514 (when it was still part of the Lordship of the Isles) list nearly all the land around Loch Finlaggan down to what is now Bridgend and up to what is now Port Askaig as being farmed by MacKelvies. So, that means MacDonald of the Isles, as well. And the Loch Finlaggan Area tartan (it's OK - I asked the owner of the Islay Woollen Mill).

And through marriage, the Earls of Ross had a claim on the island too. So that adds Ross to the possibilities.

The Campbells put off as many of the MacDonalds as they could over the 150 years or so after 1614: this stimulated migrations to Kintyre (Clan Donald country), Arran (Hamilton), parts of Galloway (Douglas) - and, as said, to the Glassary (Campbell).

There had been earlier movements to Ulster and down the coast towards Dublin and Cork. So there are Irish MacKelvies (who usually spell the name MacKelvey) too. That means, certainly, the Antrim Area tartan as well as others.

Then there are the (quite close) kinsmen and women who left for the Carolinas and Manitoba ('left' in this sense is a bit of a euphemism); and also Nova Scotia, Australia, and South Island New Zealand (we're still in quite frequent contact with the Kiwis). Lots of tartan possibilities there.

And many of her (my mother's) uncles, and so on, served with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders - so add the Government Tartan as well.

A lot of options... Which to choose.

As my mother's immediate family came from the Margasdale area of Kintyre (as well as going back and forth to Islay, where my grandfather was born) - I suggested sticking to the simplest option and going for MacDonald.

And then, of course, there's the MacEachearns of Islay...

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I would also admit to the same feelings as Matt's MacIntyre customer - because I really like the Oliphant/Melville tartan, but would not feel comfortable wearing it.

Actually, it wasn't that he didn't feel comfortable wearing his mother's tartan. He told me that he really wanted to wear her tartan, but was told once by the proprietor of another kilt shop that he was not allowed to wear it. He had to wear his father's tartan.

I clarified things for him, and I think he eventually ended up in a kilt in his mom's tartan, and very happy with it.

M