Non-Scottish Kilts? HUH?!?

[RockyR]

All the welsh tartans I have seen (read: maybe not all of them, but many) are not the same pattern in warp and weft. Also, Welsh tartan mills do not make the cloth with a cilting selvedge, and as such all Welsh Cilts (that I've heard of at least...) are made with a hem.

Part true...

The Welsh tartan mill (a particular mill in Wales that only weaves Welsh Tartans) weaves their inventory on an OLD loom that does NOT give the material a kilting selvedge. Their kilts must be hemmed.

OTHER mills DO make SELECT FEW Welsh tartans and THEY tend to have a "kilting selvedge".

About the warp and weft... again, it's part true. Certain Welsh tartans are identical warp and weft. Others (and probably the majority from the Welsh Tartan Mill), such as the St. David's, are NOT identical warp and weft... the result is a kilt that looks "vertically stripey".

Yes, "Vertically Stripey" is a very accepted industry term. HAHAHA

[Kizmet]

There are other cultures where men have worn pleated skirt garments. If you look up Greek, Bulgarian and and Albanian costumes for men, you'll find some.

[Chris Webb]

Wrap your mind around this one: Eventually this very day will be considered history and some Kilt Historian will be remarking on what he will undoubtedly call American Kilts, Candian Kilts and more. He will be able to point to specific modifications, changes in materials, colors, designs and even the drift from formal to informal wear.

No doubt most of us want to believe that the kilt is Scottish and that it was born in Scotland, I do. No doubt Scotland formalized the definition of the Kilt as an outfit, National Dress if you will. Welsh, Irish ... the kilt as a mans' garment has always been ... kilts came before pants. Even the old Testatment says God made an "Apron" for Adam out of animal skin.

Here in the USA, maybe even more so in Canada, Kilts are slowly evolving from Scottish to Scottish-American (or Scottish-Canadian) and will eventually, evolve into simply American and Canadian kilts. As the world becomes smaller and more and more countries field their own kilt suppliers they will finally just be considered Kilts.

Scotland will likely forever hold a special and well deserved claim to kilts as a mans' garment. I really don't think the modern kilting movement would have even began with out the fuel of Scottish Pride and Heritage behind it. Scotland took what always was and made it wonderful, I doubt that anyone will ever be able to hold ownership of the Kilt the way the Scots have.

But ... Kilts are bigger than Scotland and they are getting bigger all the time. There will however always be the Scottish Kilt, of this I'm sure.

Kilt On.

Chris Webb

[Colin]

Here in the USA, maybe even more so in Canada, Kilts are slowly evolving from Scottish to Scottish-American (or Scottish-Canadian) and will eventually, evolve into simply American and Canadian kilts.

Chris, while I obviously can't speak for all of my country, but I think that Canadians generally just except that the kilt is Scottish. I don't think we have a need to make it our own.

Canada has a long history of Scottish settlers, regiments, and culture (the ceilidh, curling, etc, etc, etc,etc,). I may be mistaken about the current status of the BlackWatch (Todd will sort me out I am sure), but with the amalgumation of the Scottish regiments, Scotland no longer has the Black Watch, yet Canada does. We aren't trying to take it away from the Scots, we instead thank them for their influence and contribution in the shaping (along with many others of course) of our country and it's make up.

Imagine this. Yesterday after finishing a work out, I watched two young guys (20ish) get ready to leave the gym. Both put on very sporran like purses for guys that slung over their shoulder. Now it was only sporran-like in that it was very slim and opened at the top. I have seen several of these around in the past year or two (yet some people still think kilts aren't excepted ). Now what if these were marketed as a "sporran" in name alone to attract a mass market. We know they aren't sporrans, yet Joe Walmart doesn't. So is this the new American sporran?

But ... Kilts are bigger than Scotland and they are getting bigger all the time

That's thanks to those good Vegas buffets, buddy

To keep on topic though, the article by Matt that has already been mentioned is fantastic and well worth the read. I am always suprised when I hear that the kilt is as associated with the Irish as with the Scots in the US.

[macwilkin]

Someone should e-mail Burnett's & Struth in Ontario and tell them they're making "Scottish-Canadian" kilts then:

Welcome to Burnett's & Struth, Canada's leading Kilt maker and Supplier of Scottish Regalia

Welcome to the new revitalised web site for Burnetts & Struth, Ontario's leading tartan supplier and maker of traditional quality Scottish kilts.

--emphasis mine. TJW

[Colin]

Someone should e-mail Burnett's & Struth in Ontario and tell them they're making "Scottish-Canadian" kilts then:



--emphasis mine. TJW

That's kind of what I mean Todd, we accept that kilts are Scottish and we wear 'em.

[Hamish]

That's kind of what I mean Todd, we accept that kilts are Scottish.

But Colin, could it be that Chris was thinking of (Robert) R-Kilts, (Terry) BearKilts and (Steve) Freedom Kilts - the only Canadian kiltmakers I know personally. All these fine gentlemen, located in Canada, have designed and now tailor kilts, but not Scottish kilts. Theirs are quite different, and I would venture to call them Canadian kilts. In fact that is just what I do when I am asked about them! "This is a Canadain kilt", I say, in the same way that I describe my Utilikilts, USA Kilt and Amerikilts as "American kilts"; my Cornish National as a "Cornish kilt"; my Brithwe Dewi Sant as a "Welsh kilt" and my two Brittany tartans as "Breton kilts"!!

[Chris Webb]

Colin, I see your point about Canada ... It's just my own opinion but it seems like Canada has a much more laid back attitude than the USA.

Still, one only has to look to the increasing scope of the language of kilts that we speak here at Xmarks to acknowledge that the kilt has become more than just Scottish. What percentage of these new words and acronyms hale from Scotland? It even seems from this thread that historians are beginning to believe that the kilt never was just Scottish.

Matts' article truly is great reading. It's a wonderful account of the distant past, a well thought out explanation of where the kilt came from. I just can't help but wonder where kilts are going! If kilts ever really do 'take off' and become a common choice of menswear around the world historians will want to know why all us men who are increasingly distant from the birthplace of kilts by both time and space decided to .....

Kilt On.

Chris Webb

[Colin]

Still, one only has to look to the increasing scope of the language of kilts that we speak here at Xmarks to acknowledge that the kilt has become more than just Scottish. What percentage of these new words and acronyms hale from Scotland? It even seems from this thread that historians are beginning to believe that the kilt never was just Scottish.

Or it could come from a bunch of men talking on the internet nit picking and over thinking everything. It could be our desire to define everything, so that if certain things don't fit the mold, we expand the mold so that we can define it. Not sure how us watering down everything to make ourselves feel better (after all, we men need to know what category everything fits in or we are a bit uncomfortable ) makes the kilt less Scottish or loosens Scotland's claim to the kilt.

Which historians were those again? I haven't seen any historians on this board acknowledge that kilts were more than just Scottish in the past.

[macwilkin]

Which historians were those again? I haven't seen any historians on this board acknowledge that kilts were more than just Scottish in the past.

Quite right, Colin; if anything, Matt is arguing in his articles that the traditional Highland attire was adopted by other Celtic countries as a way to establish their own national identities, not that the Irish and the Welsh had their own district versions of the kilt.

T.